[00:00:00] Hello and thank you for joining us. My name is Richard Gerver. I've worked in education, human development and leadership for the last three decades. In this podcast series, I'm chatting to a diverse range of people from a number of different fields, from politics, Business, Sport, the Arts, Education, Philanthropy.

Richard Gerver: And all the time I'm looking to explore what it is our young people and organisations really need in order to thrive, not just survive, in times of increasing change and uncertainty. Welcome to The Learning Bridge. Today my guest is, well, how am I going to introduce my guest? I need to start by telling you I have a vested interest in my guest.

My guest could, in the not too distant future become [00:01:00] the Member of Parliament representing my constituency. So, she is somebody who is Important to me. She's somebody I find extraordinarily inspirational and I think you will too. I'd like to introduce you all to Catherine Atkinson. Hi Catherine, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for

Catherine Atkinson: inviting me on. It's

Richard Gerver: an absolute pleasure. You know, and when I write to you as the irate constituent, remember I was once nice to you. So look, I want you to, rather than me getting you to read out, or me reading out your parents email about your career, because it has been Extraordinary, really, and I think hugely important to our listeners, and potentially to the young people many of them educate.

Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, and also how you've led up to what you're doing now?

Catherine Atkinson: Well, my day job, because while I very much hope to be elected [00:02:00] at the next general election to be a member of parliament, we will have to wait and see. And while we're working on it, we're not complacent.

My day job is as a barrister, which for kind of people who aren't in, in England and Wales, it's basically a litigator. And I. I was told at quite a young age, because I'd never really heard of what a barrister was, I heard at quite a young age that if I became a barrister I could argue for a living, and I thought that sounded amazing, which probably also tells you a little bit about what a pain I was as a kid.

But I didn't really understand the world, and It's still really unfortunate that I think that if mummy's a judge and daddy is a king's counsel, then it's much easier to break into, but my, I didn't know any lawyers, my, my granddad drove lorries and hated lawyers and definitely thought it was a terrible direction to to go into.[00:03:00]

But it was also, I think the naivety of youth. I didn't even, I didn't realize that, that it would be hard. And I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky that I broke into the world. And I certainly studied with a lot of people who would be absolutely fantastic at, in court, but who didn't quite break into that sphere and took other directions.

But for me, a lot of people think it's a bit. I think it's crazy to want to go into politics, especially with a career and three young children, but politics is still where you make laws. And while I love being able to have an impact upon people's lives, I love representing people. And that for me is possibly even more of what drives me than.

I'm just arguing for a living, and I believe I can make a greater difference to people's lives in Parliament particularly with a Labour government than I can one case at a time, but [00:04:00] that's my day job, and where I hope to be hope to be at some point next year, in terms of, I do think that the background that I have in law, I hope will make me a better member of parliament because a crucial element of the job is looking at scrutinizing the laws that we want to enact.

Nationally, I chair the Society of Labour Lawyers. which is pretty much what it says on the tin. It is it's hundreds of lawyers who are members of the Labour Party, and we're able to do a wide range of things. We look at policy, but we also advise the shadow front bench at things going through Parliament, and also looking at how we can turn the policy aspirations that we have into workable legislation.

But we also have a mentoring scheme, and I think this year we have 36 people on our mentoring scheme, and we really focus on trying to encourage people from non traditional [00:05:00] backgrounds and support them and link them up and give them a little bit of insight so that they can break into a world which we want.

We want people, we want the greatest. talents to be able to do what they want to do and that shouldn't depend upon who your parents are or who they know. And it's frustrating because some of the areas of law that we really are desperate for more barristers are areas where because of what's happened to legal aid, because of what they, the uncertainty of the career and the poor rates of pay in the Especially in the early years, you've got people who would be brilliant, who just don't want that financial uncertainty, so we're losing out on a lot of talent, and we're also got a lot of people who would love to take that path, but just can't afford to, and I think both of those things are wrong.

Richard Gerver: I'm going to take you back in a minute. I think it's really fascinating because I think from my angle as a former educator, [00:06:00] one of the things that always fired me was the belief that whilst we hear globally, and right now while we're recording this, we're coming to the end, or we've just come to the end of COP 28, and we hear rightfully a huge amount about protecting our planet's resources and all of the things that go with that.

You know, I've always believed that one day humanity will look back and realize that the greatest squandering we ever did was of human resource. And that actually, the people who could be the ones to solve or help solve the great problems of our planet, our time, our species, humanity, are sadly people who may never get the opportunity to have their opinions heard.

And it's why when you talk about what you do in terms of facilitating and opening doors. For people to come into the legal profession. I think it's so important that as educators, we understand that the children in our care [00:07:00] could be those kids, whether it's the law, whether it's you know, enterprise, whether it's invention, whether it's in the fields of science or whatever else it might be.

You know, I often think that Steve Jobs was sat in somebody's classroom. Paul McCartney was sat in somebody's classroom, right? These people were sat in people Michelle Obama was sat in somebody's classroom, right? These people were kids once, and they were the lucky ones, but my point is, I wonder how many millions of Michelle Obamas there are out there, or however Steve Jobses there are out there, who will never know.

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It is so frustrating when I think we all know people who you just think, gosh, if they'd have just given that, if we'd given them that leg up, how much more could they have achieved? And we also, frankly, will know people who do very well, where you think, how the hell did you get here?

Catherine Atkinson: Because it's such through your force of talent. So I do think that we are missing out. And I just, I'm so conscious that [00:08:00] I stand on the shoulders of so many others, including within my own family. I mean, my, my mother is Mexican American, as I think I've mentioned to you before. And my Mexican grandfather comes from a town that just doesn't exist anymore.

It's basically a rock in the desert because it was just, it was the middle of nowhere. And it was a complete accident that he, I think it was literally, it was a flood and he ended up in a school in America rather than in Mexico and ended up getting a scholarship to the University of Texas, the first in his family to go to university, an American university and became an engineer and ended up speaking six languages.

You just think from absolutely nothing to to meeting my grandmother who was disowned for marrying a Mexican man, because nice girls from skin actually didn't marry Mexican men even once who were educated and amazing as he was. And similarly, my father was the first in [00:09:00] his family to go to, to, to university and it's just the opportunities as a result.

I had I mean, my, my parents met on a protest outside the White House, which is far more exciting and romantic history than I have with with my husband, but I just, so many things are accidents of fate and. It, it is so lucky that I was able to be able to play the part that I play now and hope to play in the future.

And I think that what I would love to see is it not just be such an accident, it be something that we go out and we enable opportunity for everyone so that we as a country and a world can benefit from their talents. I

Richard Gerver: think that's so potent and so powerful, particularly in an age where so many people currently sadly around the world feel so disenfranchised.

And I think what I appreciate so much about you and your politics, which we're not going to get into massively today, [00:10:00] is that your passion to empower is genuine and real and more needed now, I think, for all kinds of reasons. One of them, which we might touch on a little later, is a solution to the way hopefully we repair some of the horrendous polarization and anger we see around the world.

It seems to me that the only way we can do that meaningfully is to help people feel they have a greater sense. of connection with their world and the world around them, and that they can be more active in what that means. So look, I want to take you back, I want to take you back to Gobbley Catherine, the child in school, because I can imagine as a former teacher and head teacher, you would have been the kind of kid in my classroom I would have come and have loved and loathed in equal measure, I think.

Tell me, In those early formative years, were there moments where there people in education or around you who really started to help build the rungs on [00:11:00] the ladder, turned what was a kind of washy dream into something more tangible and into aspiration? And who were they and what did they do?

Catherine Atkinson: So I'm not sure I'm very different from the gobby child teenager that I was.

I think that There are two in particular, and I think that one is almost less about going into law and going into politics, but I had a primary school teacher whose passion was surrealist art. And I think I would have been eight when I was in his class, and I think I learned a lot more that year about art than I did about grammar.

But for me it was when you meet someone who has a real passion for something, you cannot help but be inspired, and it was just that. I do, I think that creativity in the arts is so crucial to [00:12:00] education but I think that what he gave me was just a learning not being a chore, just something that felt really exciting and and I remember.

his class more than any other year in my education. And I think that it was his passion that, that came through so strongly. And really, when I talk to friends about primary school, he is the name that comes up again and again. And I think that he opened the doors and I went to a very diverse in every sense of the word.

Primary School. And I just think that when people have real enthusiasm, that, that communicates and what I do find really horrifying in terms of the direction that we've seen in British education over the last decade is almost a stripping out of creative activity in a lot of our, in the direction our education has taken.

And I think that is such a mistake, considering we, we're not robots. And actually robots can do lots of things far faster than we can. And learning, [00:13:00] trying to teach children to be robots is not educating in my very, with my limited insight. And I think that we do need to inspire, we need to ensure that we have creative thinking, and that's what we will be able to really be what we should be focused on when it comes to the future of education and how we get the most out of the next generation, inspire them to do more.

But I think liked and loathed is apt because I think that in my secondary school I was a real pain in the arse and I do, I kind of in hindsight feel a bit for my head teacher. If I thought something was unfair, I'd really call it out as unfair. And I think sometimes you do get an attitude of do as I say it's good for you.

And what I love when I engage with schools and sixth forms is you can never prepare for it. You'd like you never know what they're going to ask you. You never know what's going to where the conversation will go. And that kind of challenge [00:14:00] and engagement is. Amazing and I love it, but I do really feel for my, the head teacher in my secondary school because I wouldn't be quiet when I disagreed with something, I would be loud, and I wouldn't necessarily just be loud in my class, I would engage with other classes and other parents.

And once or twice the press, if I really felt that something was going in the wrong direction I remember. Being in the head teacher's office for a couple of hours while she tried to convince me of something that, that she had implemented for the year below that I disagreed with very publicly and I think that she Yeah, I'm not sure she thinks of me fondly, but I went to a different, I went to a sixth form, and she came round with the new, the head of my sixth form, and the head of year, and she ended up, I think, randomly in my classroom and said, Catherine, are you causing as much trouble here as you did?

At our school, which was not in [00:15:00] the first few weeks of when you're trying to make a good impression, necessarily the introduction that you want to your new head teacher. But so I think she got her own back a bit.

Richard Gerver: There's so much in what you've just said that really fascinates me. The first is this thing about authenticity and passion of educators, of anybody really.

I think of I've always believed that really good teachers are kind of would make outstanding leaders almost in any field because that authenticity, their communication skills, the emotional intelligence it takes to lift somebody up is fascinating. And linked to that, I've always said to trainee teachers that they need to remember that often when you talk to people about their education, It wasn't the subject they fell in love with first, it was the teacher who taught it because of that passion and that authenticity.

And I think so often times that's a wonderful thing but I also think it can be a sadness because you may miss out on something in school that you could [00:16:00] really be passionate about and could really light your fire as a subject, as an interest area, but if you don't have the skill and passion of a teacher who can light that in the first place.

Often. You know, I mean, I don't know about you, but how often do you hear people say that in retirement they've rediscovered something or they've suddenly found a passion for, and those are things they could have had a passion for all those years ago and I think that's hugely important.

I also, I really want to get stuck into this thing, though. About, what is it about, and it's a hard question because it asks you to be not egotistical, but to think very positively about yourself. What was it that allowed you to smash down some of the barriers that were in your way? And what do you think educators or people raising young people could do today to help engender those qualities more so that there were more Katherine Atkinsons?

Catherine Atkinson: Yeah. What should we necessarily want? Well, Cataract could be a spot [00:17:00] to take your point. I think that I think I'm hugely lucky in that my parents have always very much instilled in me a belief that I could do whatever I wanted. And I think the only thing I said they said I couldn't do was go into diplomacy. Because I think that,

I think they felt that my, my, my edges were sufficiently pronounced that maybe that wasn't my my forte. I think some of those edges have been rubbed off a little bit. I do think that We need to ensure that we look to what's special in each child and ensure that they feel it because what worries me sometimes is and I did hear, and it will, they'll remain nameless, but I heard a teacher once describe a child as though they they think they're really special, and it's a bit like, they are special.

each and every one. And if we don't make them feel that then how are we going to ensure that they do have the confidence to go on and do what [00:18:00] they are capable of doing? And it really worries me quite the level. I know there is. So many who are so knowledgeable about the level of anxiety that our teenagers and our younger adults feel, but there is so much anxiety and worry in the world, and I think it comes back to what you were talking about earlier, but there is such a need to empower and to make people feel like actually they can make a difference, because I certainly hear, and I hear it.

with people of all ages, but the nothing you do ever changes anything. As soon as people believe that, everyone will stop trying to change things. And that worries me greatly, but then when I do engage with younger people, I feel hope and optimism because actually they care about the world and not in a selfish I just want to get on and do well myself.

But I think that there is a real acknowledgement [00:19:00] when I. when I speak to younger people, they actually just want, they want things to be better, not just for themselves, but for everyone. But I do think we need to ensure that they believe that they have a place in delivering that, and that what they do, and what they say, and what they, and their opinions, count because there is a huge disenfranchisement, there is a huge disengagement with politics.

And I think that to a degree, I get it in that there is no faith in politics and politicians and there is a huge responsibility on those who want to go into politics to show people that it can be done better. It, that for me is the scariest thing in politics right now the just, the people just shrugging their shoulders and just going, it makes no difference.

Of course it makes a difference.

Richard Gerver: Yeah, well, I mean, we can see that, right? It was interesting, I was talking to another guest about this point.[00:20:00] About enfranchisement. If people want to pick up the episode, it's with an extraordinary woman called Jill Hicks. I won't say more than that, but we were talking about this issue and we were talking specifically about change and changing society and the way people behave towards each other, see one another, et cetera, et cetera.

And she said exactly what you've said everybody has to realize and appreciate that. When they dip their finger into the pool of life, there are ripples, whether they intend them to be or not, and actually, it's how we activate that opportunity to change, and we realize that by our very existence, we have a power on the destiny of the planet, even if it's in a micro level how we interact with each other.

I mean, again, as an educator, one of the things I'm passionate about is explaining to future educators. And actually leaders and potential leaders in any walk of life or organization [00:21:00] that their legacy is not in their own actions. It's in how they empower others to make change and difference too. You know, in a way for me, the great art of leadership is to do yourself out of a job because you've empowered everybody around you so much you don't need to exist anymore.

Catherine Atkinson: I, I think when I when I stood for Parliament before, I had a Conservative councillor put on social media that I would be far too busy changing nappies to ever be a member of Parliament, and it ended up becoming quite a, media controversy, but I was angry, not because I was offended, frankly, I've heard far worse, but I was angry because I spent so much time trying to encourage others, particularly young women, that they can make a difference, and that they do have a place in politics, and that they, that their contribution would be important and valued.

And to have some middle aged white guys say that actually, no, politics is not is not for people like me people like them, [00:22:00] I, it made me absolutely furious. But then I think that the Daily Mail and The Sun ended up running stories very clearly implying that he was sexist, which I don't think he ever quite got.

realise what the problem was but I do think it's just so important that we do the opposite. That we say, actually, you know what, we need people in politics that, that bring insights from across our society. That's the whole point of representational politics. And if, frankly, our parliament and it doesn't look like our country.

Then it's not, then it's not doing it right.

I think, I mean, I think that's potent and I don't know about you, but I, well, you've touched on it actually. I'm profoundly optimistic in one way, because I think, first of all, there are too many people out there, particularly, I think, like middle aged men like me, who underestimate how extraordinary our young people [00:23:00] are and how extraordinary that next generation is.

Richard Gerver: And I think they underestimate them at their peril. Because I do think the world is changing and changing faster than they like. I think it's why we're seeing so much. You know, so much pushback from that group of people who underneath it all are terrified, whether it's the owners of some of the big media companies or whether it's some of those entitled people around politics.

I think they're actually, if they're honest with themselves, terrified because they know the tide is coming to sweep them away and a bit like King Canute. They're trying to try to push the sea backwards. And I think they'll only be able to do that for so long. I mean, the interesting question I want to ask you is as a lawyer, somebody who is ingrained in legislation and policy and will Hopefully, he says become, and I can be hopeful for you, to become a politician in this country.

What would you like to see happen within the [00:24:00] education space? And I might come back to the comments you made about creativity and stuff in a while, because it's my passion, but within the education space, do we need to do more around formally educating our young people? in democracy and civics. Do we need to do more?

Because it seems to me that a lot of young people who come from, and I don't use this in a derogatory way, more entitled backgrounds, often hear conversations and debates and arguments around policy and politics and And some of the kids who are in our most challenging homes, our most challenging backgrounds, won't necessarily have active exposure to meaningful conversations about current affairs and politics.

Is there something we could be doing more of, in your opinion, in the education system?

Catherine Atkinson: I definitely think that there is a need for greater discussion about actually how our world [00:25:00] works, and that. Action is not full and meaningful if you cut out politics. Politics is how decisions are made about what we, everything touches, every element of our lives.

And so for my part, if we don't talk about that in, in schools, we are depriving our children and young people of really understanding what is crucial in our world. But the, And certainly when I first started going in, certified, first started in, in politics and would go into schools lots.

And if anything, I think that there is a greater reluctance of schools to have people come in and talk about politics because they're so worried about, will it be seen as partisan? Will we get in trouble? And I think that And again, not trying to be too party political, but we had a lobbying act, which you expect is to try and stop access from the rich and powerful to our politicians.

[00:26:00] But what it did was take away the voice of charities and trade unions on political issues. And I do think that there is a great, much greater fear amongst educators now that if they talk about politics, somehow they'll get in trouble because it will be seen to be partisan, but I do think it's something that, that needs to be more ingrained, and I think there have been previously pushes to try and get that kind of element of civic education into our schools, but it really hasn't it really doesn't feel like it's an ingrained part of our education system.

And I mean, I do, I get, I speak to people on the doorsteps every week, and I will speak to people in their 60s who've never voted, but if you can get them to vote when they first are eligible, and I would like to see that at 16 rather than 18, but if they vote once, it demystifies it, and it means that they might vote again and again, but if you leave it.[00:27:00]

I think you do end up exactly as you have suggested with people who do it because they've seen their parents do it or their but not necessarily from, for those who don't see how important and connected it is to their lives. And I love it when I speak to parents who say, yes, I took my daughter with me when I went to, to go and vote and expose them to, to that.

If we leave it. If we leave it to kind of individual parents, then how many are missing out on having those conversations about what voting is. What is, what it means what our governments do. And I do think that there is a lot more that can and should be done to try and ensure that young people realize how things work and how it is relevant to them.

I

Richard Gerver: think, I mean, so many, again, so many rich things there to think about for the people listening. So one, I think, is very salutary because some of our listenership will be over the [00:28:00] pond in the US and I think we're seeing some horrendous battles over there in the education space in certain states of the United States around a whole plethora of things where what should be taught and how it should be taught is almost dominated by political agenda.

I think here one of the things that troubled me many years ago was when the coalition government came into power in this country in 2010. One of the first things they did was they scrapped the curriculum authority in this country, which meant we were one of the only countries in the developed world that didn't have a buffer between politicians and what should be taught in our schools, which I think has been deeply dangerous for a very long period of time.

So that, those are some of my thoughts there and I think you're right and I think we need people like you, we need parents, we need young people, we need people in all sectors to stand [00:29:00] up and say no, education has to It has to be about helping young people to develop the confidence as well as developing knowledge.

It has to be about developing confident, critical young people. A few years ago, I interviewed a man called Barry Barish, who was the 2017 Nobel Prize winner for physics. And something he said about the kind of people he needed to gather around him in order to go on and win a Nobel Prize, although he didn't know that's what the research would lead to, was And I think this is one of the most powerful and potent things I often challenge educators and people outside of education with.

He said, I needed people that had the courage to challenge the beauty of the proof. And I just think that's one of the most poetic and powerful things I've ever heard about what we should be seeking to do with young people. And if I'm

Catherine Atkinson: Sorry, I completely agree with you about especially the kind of the Gove reforms in education and it comes back to the I was utterly horrified that at the stripping out of [00:30:00] creativity and the arts, but the other thing that they did, which I thought was indefensible was they absolutely slashed early years education.

So I used to be a chair of governors at a nursery school and children's center and really saw, and I did that in my 20s, but I saw the impact and the enablement of younger families through that support. And the greatest difference you can make to someone's life chances is in that first three years.

And I do think that there was a huge benefit in real investment in those first three years that we had seen between 1997 and 2010. And I think I will never forgive the coalition government for stripping that back. And I think that there, when we could have started almost by talking about about the loss of talent.

I think a huge element of that is the ripping away of the investment and [00:31:00] support around early years, which was focused on supporting the entire family in those early years, I think is unforgivable. And I do think that we are now really seeing the. The disbenefit in the children that have come through without the same degree of support in their really formative years.

I think you're

Richard Gerver: right, and I think, by the way, it's been amplified by the pandemic, because what we've seen there are young people, as you know, with the number of schools and education centres you visit now. The impact on language development, on confidence, on ability to interact and build relationships in those children, who, if you like, have now been doubly starved of that kind of support, is going to take one heck of an effort.

to turn around for those young people. And I think it's something that yet again, I mean, it's been unbelievably highlighted. It was before COVID, but I think COVID, like with so many things, has been an unbelievable amplifier of [00:32:00] why early years education is so important. And again, on a very personal note, I've never understood why we allowed the education, allow the education system to be dominated top down.

In other words, from publishing houses and higher education institutions, defining what education should look like, when I actually believe education should be designed bottom up, in that. And I've said this many times before, apparently we learn somewhere between 70 and 75 percent of everything we'll learn in our lifetime before we're five.

We are incredible learning machines and if only we could learn from the incredible practice and knowledge of early years educators and find ways to bleed that up through the system, I think we could create a transformative system.

Catherine Atkinson: Completely, and it absolutely ingrains inequality when you, if you don't do that, because what we absolutely have seen, the reason that I've worked so hard to try and stop the closure of a nursery school in Derby North, where I've, [00:33:00] want to be the Member of Parliament was because that the reason that the Conservatives wanted to close that nursery school was because they were running a deficit in relation to their special needs provision.

So it was a state nursery school that had 40 percent special educational needs and were able to support a number of children that just whose needs could not be met in private settings and who had often had, had placements break down where they couldn't be met. And they were putting in the additional support and the safe ratios and that actually meant that they could be in that kind of setting.

If you close that down, if you close down the fact that they're actually being assessed and their needs are being assessed from nursery school, all you do is delay that assessment till primary school. In many cases, you will get to a point where actually you are depriving that child of really even being able to stay in mainstream education because they [00:34:00] are not making the progress that enables their future education to actually be as successful as possible.

If you do, if you actually ingrain that separation, ingrain that inequality from the start, it becomes exponential and it's so frustrating that we then absolutely could be in a situation where it isn't just wrong, it's economically and financially illiterate because it always costs more if you push people to crisis.

It always costs more if you're having to put in even more specialised support because you have taken them away from the ability to participate in mentoring and education. And it's that short sightedness that I think that we have seen so much in education, that if you cut resources from the earlier years, you actually make it much harder later on for people to fulfill their potential.

Richard Gerver: I mean, it's really interesting you say that, and I know [00:35:00] I'm very conscious of your time, so I'm going to wrap in a couple of minutes with a couple of final questions, but I mean, one of the things that really strikes me about what you're saying, and the bigger picture, not just within education, is that actually, ultimately, we've got to find a way to be more proactive.

We've got to find a way to create systems which prevent rather than necessarily cure. You know, whether it's health care, whether it's education, whether it's law and order. It strikes me that with all of these things, what we've ended up with, and I think it's certainly the truth in this country and probably in other parts of the world too, is we're living in an age where we are spending so much time, energy, and resource on curing problems that could actually be prevented in the first place, and I think You know, that point around education is so immensely powerful that by the time our kids get to secondary education, wherever they are in the world, often so much of our resource is going into remedial work rather than actually helping them [00:36:00] push forwards.

Catherine Atkinson: We certainly are seeing, as you say, that in our health service, which if you can't, if you cannot get to see your GP, you are going to end up in A& E. It's going to cost far more. But we definitely are seeing that in our criminal justice system. I mean, we are in a situation that our prisons are literally going But we what resources really being put into preventative work, they, we had massive cuts to community policing, which were able to enable that kind of law enforcement to be developing community ties and being able to try and shift people potentially at much earlier ages into a different direction.

We certainly are in a situation where, because of massive discuts to our criminal justice system, that we are not seeing the investment in probation. Probation is absolutely falling to pieces, but what we saw was a fracturing of, they broke up. a probation service into like 21 different private [00:37:00] companies.

They all went bust and they had to bring them back in house. But we have absolutely lost the ability to break cycles of deprivation and trauma. And we see that also when it comes to our family justice systems. Austerity has caused so many false economies. When our local authorities are not able to support families early on to prevent family breakdown, to prevent children from going into care, What you are absolutely stacking up the problems for the future that will not just cost vastly more money, but will also absolutely mean that the life chances of so many people are cut off at the knees when it comes to being able to enable and take advantage of the society of those young people's talents.

If they end up in the care system because interventions haven't been put in early enough, what are we doing to their life chances?

Richard Gerver: It's such a powerful, in a way, I think, message to, [00:38:00] to think about, because in a way what you've just done for me is bring back and this is not about putting more pressure and workload on educators, by the way, but actually it is about the profound importance of getting it right for our young people early because so many of the things and decisions and life lifelines and narratives they go down could be changed and altered.

I mean, I remember many years ago having A heated conversation with a former Labour Prime Minister about the fact that if only we could find a way to nurture the talents of kids that end up running gangs, because they have profound ability, and actually find a way to help them steer those narratives into really positive and constructive directions, they could be unbelievable community leaders using those natural talents and gifts.

Catherine Atkinson: I think that actually being able to be a youth worker or a community worker is not something that everyone can do. [00:39:00] It takes a real talent and a real empathy and a real insight and it, but it also it's so hugely important. You talked before about actually how valuable teachers could be if they were more involved in, in, they wanted to stand for politics themselves.

But at the moment, the way we treat our teachers is Pretty abysmal. And the pressure that we put on them, because you are talking about a segment of society, which exactly as you said, has such an opportunity to nurture and enable and empower, but at the moment, they aren't being empowered.

They are being absolutely just, they're so stretched. Right, and there is so much that they are expected to do, and they're at the front end of seeing the impact of the cost of living crisis, and as you say, the, a lot of the ramifications of Covid as well, and until we actually enable them to focus on teaching rather than absolutely everything else that they're expected to do, we are making, we are hindering them.[00:40:00]

And I do I do think that there is a huge challenge for the next government in actually trying to address what has become a real retention and recruitment issue. And we lose so many teachers in the first few years because they just think, what is this? This isn't what I want all signed up to do.

And again, we're losing talent. So we need to ensure. that we are enabling the teachers of the future who in turn will enable and empower our children. I

Richard Gerver: think you're right and just two thoughts on that and then I'm going to ask you a last question. I mean for me a lot of that comes down to trust and the fact that I think so many educators Feel that they're guilty until they're proven innocent.

Rather than innocent, until they're proven guilty. And I certainly think that's the case with the way schools are currently monitored and managed from above. And I think if we could change that culture in our system and we haven't got time [00:41:00] to go into some of the horrendous tragedies we've seen in this country in, in, in very recent times, I think that would have a profound.

impact. So look, I need to, I want to finish on a really optimistic and bright note. And again, whether people listening to this, whatever time of year they're listening to this, they're coming up to Christmas. And as both as a parent, Catherine, and in your professional capacity, my guess is you've been to your fair share of nativities.

this year. And I am now your genie, right? And I'm granting you one wish. Now the one wish, the only caveat I'm putting on the wish for the future is you can't say that Labour will be in government, okay? That's, that, but if you had a, if you had a wish for the future, and particularly around our young people, is there one way you could sum that up?

And I could Consider granting it for you.

Catherine Atkinson: I wish there was a way of creating a mirror for our young people so that they could see quite what they have to offer.[00:42:00] I would love for there to be something that can really show them that it's, that despite the mess of the world that our, that the older people have been making of things that they are the ones that have the potential to really change.

And I don't think we can afford to wait for it to be. generation to start changing things. I think we need to have that change now, but I would love to, I'd love to, I, I just I do sometimes worry that some, that we need to empower more, and that is by showing the next generation that really they are the future and they have the power to change things.

Richard Gerver: I love that. Thank you very much. Final question then from me. If people have been as inspired as I have by our conversation and wherever they are in the world, and particularly those people that can actually, local to me, not that I'm nudging them, how can people connect with you and find out a little bit more about you and your work if they're inspired to do

Catherine Atkinson: so much of what I [00:43:00] try and do is to find different ways of being able to listen and engage with people, which is why we are, we knock on doors and speak to people on their doorsteps a few times a week. It's why I try and engage as much as I can on social media, whether it's. Twitter or Facebook or Instagram.

I don't believe that you can represent people unless you are listening. And what I try and do is just listen as much as I can. So absolutely, whether it's online or whether it's just seeing me about and stopping me and saying hello. I'm always, I never understand people who go into politics who don't seem to like me.

people. I'm really nosy. I love people. I love conversations. I'm able to have in this role. So please stop me, say hello and tell me what's most important to you. That's,

Richard Gerver: that's brilliant. Thank you. And do you have a website, Catherine, that people can connect to you on? Yes,

Catherine Atkinson: yes. CatherineAtkinson.com. You can find my website or I'm pretty easy to find on most social media platforms.

Richard Gerver: That's brilliant. Well, listen, thank you so very much for your [00:44:00] time. I know just how busy you are, but you, your passion, your commitment, you, the fact that you have devoted and are going to devote your life to actually making a difference, I hope, will inspire many of the people who are listening and many of the people they educate and inspire to do the same thing.

In finishing off, I'd just like to say thank you to all of you for joining us. If you'd like to find out more, then please check out my website, which is richardgerver. com, and subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss any future episodes. But until next time, here's to the future.