Richard Gerver: Hello and welcome to this special edition of The Learning Bridge, brought to you as part of the National Literacy Month campaign, a partnership between the Be Podcast Network and Reading Is Fundamental. We're hosting a number of conversations across our network of podcasts, really focusing in on developing children's reading and lifelong literacy skills, and this is one of two very special episodes I'm privileged enough to be recording for my podcast The Learning Bridge.

And as some of you may know, my name is Richard Gerver. I've worked in education, human development and leadership for nearly four decades now. In this podcast series, I'm chatting to, or have been chatting to, a diverse range of [00:01:00] people. from a number of different fields, business, sports, the arts, education and philanthropy, to explore what our young people and organisations really need in order to thrive and not just survive in times of increasing change and uncertainty.

And of course at the heart of that, is literacy, literacy skills, a love of reading, a love of developing those language skills, which have to be absolutely core to everything we and our children think about and do. And so it's why today I am extremely excited to have with me Erin Bailey, who is currently App reading is fundamental with responsibility for literacy programs and research.

And rather than give you her mother's email about her CV, I'm going to hand over to Erin. And first of all, just to say Erin, thank you so much [00:02:00] for giving us your time today.

Erin Bailey: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Richard Gerver: And more importantly, for you to tell our audience just a little bit about yourself and your journey to what you're doing now.

Erin Bailey: Yes. So I think reading and particularly reading joy was a big part of my journey in education. I started out as a fifth grade teacher in California. And what I was most excited about teaching fifth grade was that that was when I myself started to really get into novels and reading on my own. So I was really excited to share that with the students that I was teaching.

So like many teachers, the way I started was basically by showing them and reading aloud to them books that I loved growing up. So, I think we read Tales of Fourth Grade Nothing, Bridge to [00:03:00] Terabithia, Freak the Mighty was a big one. So, you know, these are kind of like classic texts now. You know, later on I learned along the way more about culturally responsive teaching and If I could go back in time, I would try to pick out books that would resonate a little bit more with my students and their cultural background.

I was working in a community called Watts and about 99 percent of my students were Hispanic Spanish speaking at home. So if I knew more than, you know, that's, that's always the challenge in education. If I, if only I knew then but you know, I started by bringing the books that brought me joy as, as a child.

And you know, there were challenges along the way. These were students that weren't, mostly weren't reading at grade level. But I truly believed in my heart that if I gave them books and if I gave them the joy of reading that that would be transformative in their reading [00:04:00] journey. And this included my mom and my aunt who would send boxes of books to me all the time that they got at Goodwill so that I could give these books to students.

So if you think of the teacher I was then, it very much aligns with Reading is Fundamentals mission of choice and access. You know, it's interesting because as I progressed in my education, I started a master's degree in reading instruction. I kind of, through that process, unlearned joy a little bit. You know, just, you know, candidly.

And that's because through that program, I started to get hyper focused on teaching the skills of reading. You know, so I was really focused on how many sight words could my students read? How many words correct per minute were they reading? These very skill based reading. And as I was getting deeper into that, I was losing the joy a little bit.

So after a couple of years there, I actually left Los [00:05:00] Angeles and moved to Hong Kong. And that's where I was trained in International Baccalaureate, which is an inquiry based approach. And all of a sudden the joy was back because it was about students selecting their own text. And I kind of found the balance there around more explicit phonics instruction, let's say, and just giving students the opportunity to explore in the library, select their own books picking out books that represented the students, because I worked at an international school, so very diverse group of students.

And then after that, as I was moving to D. C., Washington, D. C. I had a clear picture in my mind of the type of school that I wanted to work at, and I was really focused on aligning what I learned about how I thought children learn to read with the philosophy and the mission of the school. And I found a wonderful school in Washington, D.

C. called the Inspired Teaching Demonstration School. I taught there for five years. I was a reading [00:06:00] specialist there. And after that I moved on to reading is fundamental. So joy has kind of followed me all through this journey. And so it's great because I feel like I've come full circle where I've learned enough that I can share with that teacher that I was.

You know, however many years ago, that fifth grade teacher the things that I've learned about teaching reading skills, using culturally responsive approaches, but keeping that joy alive all along the way.

Richard Gerver: Oh, amazing. Thank you. It's interesting you say that. I mean, Some of the research here we've got an organization in this country called the National Literacy Trust, and they publish research every couple of years into reading of young people.

And one of the statistics that really stood out for me in the last report that came out tracking reading in 2023, was that the response that 31 percent of young people said they would read for pleasure more if the books represented them. [00:07:00] And I think that's a, it's, it's really interesting. One of my previous guests, Chantal, who has, you know, it's made her mission to make sure young people feel represented in, in literacy and has written a couple of children's books, which really represent her community.

I, you know, I think it's something we just don't talk about enough. is, is is representation. So young people feel that they're entering a world through reading that represents their lives, that speaks for them. But we might come back to that in, in a little while. I'm also fascinated, I'm smiling, the number of times over the years I've thought to myself, I wish I'd known that when I was a young teacher is, it's so frustrating.

Erin Bailey: It's really what motivates me now. I try to wake up every day. and just ask myself, how am I going to make a teacher's life easier today? And if I stay true to that mission and that goal you know, that's a great way to, you know, go [00:08:00] through your work day.

Richard Gerver: I think that's, I mean, yeah, I love that. How do I make a teacher's joy?

I want to take you back, if I can, to your own childhood. And those moments for you, what moments stand out for you where, where reading was a joy. What, what was it in your own childhood? Because one of the things that fascinates me, and I, I hope, you know, for a lot of our listeners, as you talked about, you know, we, as teachers on our journeys, we get sometimes working great schools with great kids.

Sometimes we're working with children in really socially challenging communities. And, and, you know, the difference sometimes of how children approach reading has such a. profound impact based on their own childhood outside of, of school. And one of the things that fascinates me is how do we develop the environments for young people to feel a joy of reading when there isn't that same modelling.

at home. So I just want, you [00:09:00] know, when you look back at your own childhood, what were the fundamental, if you can track it, were there fundamental moments where you just, even as a young child, were thinking, I love this, this is great, and what were they?

Erin Bailey: So interesting that you use the word, you know, love.

I, I like that as a synonym for joy. I think one thing about joy is that it's not a direct synonym all the time for happiness or enjoyment. Joy can come from doing something really challenging, but feeling that you're capable of doing it. And the example that I like to use is, if you're familiar with the Disney Pixar movie Inside Out there's a character called Joy, And a character called Sadness.

And sorry, this will be a spoiler alert if you haven't seen the first one, but the second one is out now. But through her journey at the end of the movie, what Joy learns is that you can find joy in sorrow. It's actually a moment of when her and joy and sadness come [00:10:00] together. That there's even an even more powerful memory for Riley, the main character.

So that being said, the experience I want to share is about watching my father read to me as a child because my father has dyslexia and has always been really open about his challenges to read. But, you know, he wanted to read aloud to me. He knew the importance of that. And we had Dr. Seuss books growing up.

If you're familiar with Dr. Seuss books, they often rhyme. And they have words that don't exist in real life, which can be really challenging if you have dyslexia, because you, are forced to decode or sound out the words and you can't use any kind of like background knowledge or context. So my dad would read these books to me, but he'd actually have to break them up over several nights.

So sometimes we'd get like a post it note or something and put it in the book and he'd be like, this is where we're gonna stop tonight because this is a really challenging book for me to read. But it was through that [00:11:00] relationship, through that experience, watching him do that that showed me the power of reading the perseverance that it takes to read, and I think for me that was a moment of great joy.

Richard Gerver: I think that has so much power for me and I think it's so important on so many levels. Two levels I just want to parallel and pick up on. The first is what you say and I often say to people, you know, you learn nothing new by getting something right. You only ever learn something new from the point of a mistake or the realization you don't know something, you can't do something.

I think it's a very powerful message. all through our lives, but actually also for parents, you know, who, who, when they're reading with their children, I love, first of all, your father being a role model of resilience and challenge and, and overcoming adversity. I think if our, if our children get the opportunity to experience that young, it can only help.

I think that has enormous power. And I think that the, the, the second thing is also for our [00:12:00] young teachers, and it goes back to what you were saying about, you know, The need sometimes, because young teachers care so passionately, they want to be perfect all the time. And I think one of the really important things, going back to your experience with your father, is this thing about role modelling, mistake making and failure.

And actually, as adult role models for children that has as much power in terms of their learning journey and that journey to joy, which, you know, I agree with you. Even now, I think, as adults, right, some of the most joyous moments in our lives occur when we overcome a challenge or we overcome an obstacle or something we've been stressing about and we manage to accomplish and find a way to Through that.

So I think that's, that's really powerful. And I'd ask to, you know, in terms of, of, of that, if you were talking directly now to parents not [00:13:00] just educators. 'cause again, I think one of the really interesting things, challenging things often for teachers. is how do we get parents actively involved and what do we do to support them?

I'd love to, if you've got just a few tips for the parent that is anxiously, desperately trying to do the right thing when it comes to reading at home with their child, with encouraging their child, what would be the the kind of top advice you would give them?

Erin Bailey: I think my first advice would be make time to read together.

And a lot of times we think of reading together as a last thing before bed kind of activity. It doesn't have to be that way if that doesn't work for your family's schedule. Maybe reading together happens when you're cooking dinner, you know, you popped something in the oven. We have about 20 minutes.

Let's sit down and read a book. Certainly it can be before bedtime. It can also be in the morning. And then, you know, we underestimate, I think, the power of storytelling or [00:14:00] audiobooks too, if we're talking about just reading joy and, and building up literacy awareness. So even things that you can do on the go, in the car, as you're walking to school Making up stories together is a great activity because it still builds what we call story grammar or, you know, talking like a book.

So things like character, setting, plot, these are essential skills that children need as they're learning to read and comprehend. And this can happen through storytelling too. So I think my first advice is just to make time. You know, and reading together, shared reading as your child, you know, starts to read on their own modeling how important reading is, and we do a ton of reading on devices these days, so it's really important, and I see my husband, who's a father to our two children, doing this all the time.

When he's reading on his phone, he makes a point to say what he's doing. So I'm reading an email, I'm reading a news article, [00:15:00] because otherwise children don't know what you're doing on your phone. It's a great mystery to them. But if you tell them that you're reading on your phone or, you know, tablet or phone, whatever it is, it shows to them the importance of reading.

And that it's something that you do as part of your daily activity. And then I would say, As your children learn to read, there can be some stressors along the way, particularly if you feel that your child is struggling with learning to read. But a couple things. First, be an advocate for your child.

It's always okay to go talk to your child's teacher if you have concerns about their reading development. And your teacher should, and school should support you with that. But also try to relax and not stress about it. Know that children develop at different paces. Especially if you have two children, it's very, or two or more, it's very easy to compare.

You know, well, my oldest was reading very [00:16:00] fluently by the end of kindergarten and my second child's not. They're, all children are different. They develop differently and their reading journeys are going to be different.

Richard Gerver: That's, yeah, I think that's so important, that whole thing. And also it's not just your own kids, right?

It's when you and your friendship group have children of a similar age and you're comparing their daughter with your daughter, your son, their son, you know? And it's like, it's like the whole The anxiety as parents we feel like, you know, oh my kid's not walking yet, well mine is, mine, you know, all of those can, it's, it's such a a stress, I think it's such an important thing.

I really want to move on, one of the things that really fascinates me, and you, you mentioned it, in, in, in the interview, in the start of our conversation, really. And it is this thing about formal education, it's the good, the bad, and the ugly of the formal education process. And you know, you've got vast experience as an educator, as a researcher, [00:17:00] across the entire field.

And you know, we go through phases, don't we, in education. We, in the UK, we've, we've had a very interesting period of time in our Curricular Development, and part of that, of course, is reading, huge focus on phonics, huge focus on technical learning, huge focus on grammatical learning, so children in primary elementary age are tested on grammatical knowledge, terms, etc, etc.

I really, you know, with your vast experience, I'd love to know a couple of things. One, you know, I know there's never one answer and we've got to be careful because nuance in education is really important. What do you think are some of the greatest successes you've seen in teaching and encouraging the development of, of reading and reader see?

And what are some of the greatest pitfalls and mistakes and errors you've seen? You know, quite generalist, I'm not asking you to be very specific, but you know, in [00:18:00] terms of the kind of policy informed conversations, what works, what doesn't for you? What are the main successes and the main barriers? So,

Erin Bailey: surprise, I think maintaining joy is the most important component.

And similar to the UK, the US is going through a very heavy phonics push right now. And look, I love phonics, and I actually am very particular about the way way that I teach sounds and, and letters and everything that goes with it. So you can never get me to say that I don't like phonics. My fear with this heavy phonics approach is that we're basically going to create a nation of what I call word callers kids who can decode and spout out words but don't enjoy it.

What they're doing and don't attach any meaning to it. So I think from my experience, that kind of decontextualized learning is, is a challenge and it will [00:19:00] remove the joy from the learning. And you know, I was a reading specialist for several years and, and we did work on phonic skills, fluency, vocabulary.

All of the essential components of reading instruction. But I do have one example of what a parent saw versus what I was working on with the child. So during the March, 2020, when we moved from in school to remote I had been working with a girl for the whole year who was a couple of grades behind.

She was a second grader. She was a couple of grades behind already in her reading development. But we were working on the skills again, keeping the joy alive, and towards the end of the school year, after we had moved to Zoom, I met on the Zoom with her mother, and her mother said, Thank you, you've helped her to, become a reader.

She loves reading now. She won't [00:20:00] stop doing it. We actually took our stimulus check. The U. S. got stimulus checks. We took our stimulus check and we bought her a bunch of books and we created a book nook in our house for her because she just wants to sit and read. So thank you. And so it's interesting to think about what she was thanking me for helping her child become a reader.

a reader for developing a love of reading. She didn't say thank you for teaching her all of her blends and digraphs and for getting her to be able to read 60 words per minute. You know, these very like rote skill types of things. It was that with through our work, we had built up her literate identity and created a joyful experience that now she felt and believed and was a reader.

Richard Gerver: I think that whole point about building a joyful identity, about contextualising learning, is so important, isn't it? And that, you know, obviously, you know, it's, I always think about the core [00:21:00] skills that children need to develop, whether it's literacy, numeracy, you know, it is a bit like a painter's palette.

You've got to know how to use the colour and then mix the colour before you can create something magical. But I think with reading We've got to be very careful that we don't just make sure they know all the colours before we allow them to paint. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it isn't, it isn't quite so chronologically you know, tighten it or get them to have all their sounds, then they can say, then they can, you know, one of the things I've always felt with, with education is we've got to be very careful that, that, school education doesn't feel for children like the catholic version of purgatory, like somehow it's something I have to go through before I get to the good stuff.

Yeah. Otherwise, young kids tune out, right? They go, I, and I wondered, and do worry, whether some of the drop off we're seeing in the percentage of young people reading for pleasure in their own time is because, to an [00:22:00] extent, their experience is almost over controlled, over academic. And the, the, there is none of that pleasure.

I mean, in terms of, in terms of what kids read, do you have any, you know, because again, parents, get incredibly anxious about what's good stuff to read, what's bad stuff to read, should my child have access to this, that, and the other. And I'm not talking about the hyper political stuff, particularly in the US at the moment.

I'm just talking about the kind of material, you know. What's your advice to parents and to teachers who have anxiety about, is this okay for my child to read? What would you say the process they should go through is to go, yeah, that's fine.

Erin Bailey: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think one thing that comes to mind of parents concern about should, you know, is this a useful way to read is graphic novels.

And I love, and, you know, and just graphic books in general. I personally love graphic novels, so of course I'm biased here. [00:23:00] But families all the time will say, you know, my middle schooler is reading a graphic novel. I'm concerned that they should be reading a novel without pictures, basically. But what, what people sometimes don't understand is that Graphic novels can be just as complex, if not more complex than traditional text, and there's a few reasons why.

First of all, you have to find the balance between reading the images and reading the text. And reading the images has many things within it, too, such as what did the artist decide to put in the frame? Are they using speech bubbles or thought bubbles? And that gives you insight into whether it's first person narration or third person narration.

Who's able to have speech bubbles versus who's able to have thought bubbles within the graphic novel. Color is a big part of graphic novels because, you know, some are in black and white, Some they use very bold colors like red can have a [00:24:00] particular meaning. So you actually have to read and infer what those colors mean and why the artist is using those colors.

And in addition to that, many graphic novels actually use higher level vocabulary than a traditional text. And the reason is because there's an image to support it. So you're able to use context clues to determine that unknown word, the meaning of the unknown word. versus just in a traditional text. So that's just one example.

Again, bias because I absolutely love graphic novels, but I think if you're spending time reading, there's really no wrong way to use your reading time. And going back to You know, myself as the fifth grade teacher in Los Angeles, I chose texts that I was familiar with from my own childhood because that was what was familiar to me.

Had I taken the time to get to know my students and get to know what the current literature was, you can teach. We were using, well, Common Core hadn't come out yet, but [00:25:00] we were using, you know, whatever the California standards were. But whatever your state or country's standards are, I guarantee you, you can teach those standards using any kind of text.

So why not use a text that students are interested in and motivated to read?

Richard Gerver: And, and sometimes again, just to pick up one of the things that fascinates me is almost subtly what you were talking about there is, is it's not, not just the process of reading, it's the conversation that goes around the reading.

Right? And I'd like to pick up on that a little. So it's questioning, it's talking to one another, it's exploring the book and what, you know, the structure, the makeup, what the kids are thinking about it, what they like, what they don't like, the colour schemes, the, you know, Artist choice. All of those things are, it seems to me, so important.

And that leads me to kind of another area that I'm fascinated to get your opinion on. And that is oracy. So again, one of the big things we're [00:26:00] beginning to see here, which I'm really pleased about, is there is a real growing focus now in oracy understanding the link between oracy and reading and literacy and that whole context as a teacher that it's, it's, it's, you can't pair them out, you can't.

So I'd love to know what your thoughts are on, on oracy and the connection to, to reading and reading joy.

Erin Bailey: Yeah, great question. And I think, you know, somewhat related is fluency which usually happens when we're reading aloud. And fluency is the often ignored but very strong bridge between word reading, word decoding, and comprehension.

Because sometimes it's through reading aloud or speaking, talking about a book that you deepen your understanding. Particularly if it's a social experience you know, thinking of kids in upper grades, particularly where social experiences is a big part of their life. [00:27:00] Why not give them the opportunity to talk about a book?

And the other question I get kind of along that is, is it okay to read a book that students don't like? Sometimes it's even better because that gives them a lot to talk about. You know, what's a great way to get kids talking? Tell me why you didn't like this book. You know, comparing notes there. But I think making reading a social experience through opportunities to talk about the book in organic ways too is a great way to increase joy around reading.

Richard Gerver: I've just a couple more questions for you and I'm gonna head towards the end as I do. I'm gonna, I'm gonna head towards one of my personal things which is school libraries, but I'll come on to that in a minute and I would, wouldn't I, because some of my listeners will be going, Richard, you've got to talk about school libraries.

So I will in a while, but as a lead up to that, you know, earlier you talked about reading Nook's areas in the classroom, areas in a school. [00:28:00] So, one of the things, you know, we're going to have a lot of, hopefully, teachers on here and, and elementary school and, and teachers. What to you does a good reading nook look like?

What does a good reading area in a classroom, if a teacher has, is lucky enough to have the space, what, what should they be looking when they're, you know, we've just started a school year, we've got lots of new teachers beginning their careers and their professions. Some top, top tips for. Creating, you know, that really nice safe space.

What would, what, what should they be thinking about?

Erin Bailey: Oh, I love this question. So a big one that we sometimes overlook, especially when we're talking about younger kids, you know, kinder for a second, is having the books at their eye level. When we have our books stacked up too high, they don't get to see them.

And more importantly, they don't get to choose them because they can't reach them. So something simple as putting As kids you know, get older, you can teach them about the spine of [00:29:00] the book and you can put books in you know, how we would traditionally see them at a library. But for younger kids, especially like pre K, kindergarten, If you have the space for it, I actually recommend getting those type of bookcases where the cover faces out.

It's not only easier for younger little hands to grab but they get to see the cover and they get to choose the book. So having it at their, you know, chest level. They can easily grab it. They see the cover. And that's how I have my personal library set up for my own kids because I have, I have young children you know, and again, as they grow older, they can learn what the spine is and how to read the spine and have it traditionally arrayed.

I think making it cozy is important too. And this was something I did even back when I was teaching fifth grade in Los Angeles. again, because I was going based on creating reading joy. You know, I went to Goodwill and I got some beanbag chairs and a really soft, cozy rug and set it and some, you know, loveys that kids could [00:30:00] hold while they were reading.

And this was fifth grade but the kids still loved it. And I had one boy who would stay after school, we called it study hall. And he would just, lay on his belly in the reading nook and, and read a book. And, you know, sometimes he would be like twirling his feet. And I was like, wow, he's really just being a kid right now.

And I told him what, you know, I'll never forget one day I said to him, okay, it's time to go. And he said, I don't want to go home because I can't play outside at home. My neighborhood's not safe. And so. That resonated a lot for me because not only was there reading joy and comfort there, there was the feeling of safety.

And he didn't want to leave this safe and comfortable reading space. So, you know, of course that got me and I let him stay a little, a little bit longer, but I did have to go home eventually too. But I think, you know, just creating a welcoming space for [00:31:00] kids.

Richard Gerver: I think that, that has so, that is so resonant for me.

You know, I've been lucky enough to visit. Some great school libraries and reading spaces. And one of the things, well two things strike me. One is that, that feeling of safety and security. A place where young people don't feel they're having, you know, they just chill, they're just kids. And they're, In that space, and we forget, don't we, that it for a number of our young people coming into our schools, our schools are often the refuge of peace and calm.

They're, they're often the most tranquil spaces they experience in their lives, in their, in their daily lives, you know, and, and to have a space where they can just kind of kick their legs up. lie down, pick up a book, chill, have no one disturb them, that, you know, the noise and detritus of everyday life has, has so much power.

And the second, of course, is the duality, that often, you know, I, I think that when you create [00:32:00] spaces like that, you, you're not just helping that child develop a joy of, of reading and a joy of learning. But actually, It's often a space where they're at their most relaxed and they're there at their most open And and it strikes me that often teachers that take the time to create those kind of spaces are the ones that end up building really powerful relationships with kids Just like the boy you've described and they get to know those children in a much different way deeper way, and that bond of trust that's so important between teacher and student becomes so, so potent and, and so powerful.

And look, I've two more questions. One will be, I'll end with a kind of personal one about you, but before I do, going to the school library thing, one of the things that we find here is a real challenge for our school librarians. is justifying often to administration and leadership in schools why investing in, [00:33:00] maintaining, creating a good library space is just so important.

And one of the things I'd love you to do is help my librarians with an argument from, you know, a passionate educator's point of view. What would be the two or three key things they should be going to their administrative leadership staff saying, X, Y, Z, that's why we need really good reading spaces and school libraries?

Erin Bailey: Yeah, and I think a lot of, I don't know if it's the same in the UK, but what a lot of people don't realize, at least in the US, is that not every school has a library, and not every school has a librarian, and they're becoming more and more rare. The school I was at in Los Angeles, we didn't have a library or a librarian, that, hence why my family was all going to second hand stores and shipping books to me or driving them over when they would come visit.

So, It's amazing that it's something that we take away from schools or, you know, if there's budget cuts, that's [00:34:00] one of the first things to, to go many and many schools share a librarian. It's a rotating librarian that goes amongst different schools, but that librarian and the library space is the steward for promoting a joy of reading.

It's something that doesn't happen in the classroom, unfortunately, a lot. Most classrooms in the U. S. have less than 20 minutes a day when children can just sit and read what we call independently or just, you know, with a book on their own. So having a library and a dedicated library time where students have the opportunity to choose books sit down and read them, that's, You know, valuable.

And the other thing is the choice part. So oftentimes there's classroom libraries that are leveled based on, you know, whatever the school curriculum is using for, for a level. So it might be like a phonics leveling system or it could be some other like a lexile leveling system or some other kind of leveling [00:35:00] system.

And so children are often encouraged to only choose books from a designated space that is. at their reading level. Libraries open up to everything and they don't have a you're going to use this book for this way. So it opens up choice. Kids can take a book. I often say, you know, it's a book that you're going to take home and read with your family.

So it doesn't matter if it's at your reading level or not, because you're going to take it home. Your parent might read it to you or an older sibling or maybe a younger sibling. between the three of you, you're going to figure out a way to read it. But it gives that choice that is a really critical part to

Richard Gerver: developing reading.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for that, Erin. I'm hoping librarians everywhere are just going to record that little snippet and play it out. So thank you and thank you so, so much for everything. Your wisdom, your time, your passion, your commitment. So finishing kind of with a personal question, what are you up to right now?

[00:36:00] And most, but perhaps most importantly, if people have been inspired listening to you how can they, you know, find out more about your work and connect with you if they wanna, they, you know, if they want to and, and to delve a little bit deeper?

Erin Bailey: Sure. So, the biggest project that I'm working on right now that I'm very excited about is our brand new Read for Success early childhood curriculum.

And we do have a website for that. It's riff. org slash ECE. All the materials on there are downloadable for you for free. And I can send you the link, of course, Richard, so you can include it in the show notes. But what we don't realize You know, we talked about libraries are disappearing in schools, play is also disappearing in schools.

For many of the reasons we discussed, you know, we want to build skills so we're taking away play time. However, there is a We've done a significant amount of research on the direct link between play in early childhood, so [00:37:00] early childhood meaning birth through age five, play in early childhood, and later literacy learning and literacy success.

So we've developed this program to offer educators, families, play based literacy materials for free that they can use to spark that joy in reading and keep it alive.

Richard Gerver: I think, you know, what a powerful note to finish on because I think that that's so important. And of course, it's so important to, you started, we started our conversation talking about context, and we've talked about context and purpose quite a lot in our conversation.

And that thing about play fascinates me because You know, I sadly think as children grow and even into adulthood, we see play as a kind of peripheral luxurious thing that you do if you have time and as you get older we become too mature to play and all of that kind of stuff. And I would argue that that whole essence of play discovery is is so vital [00:38:00] to firing a lifelong love of learning, of literacy of storytelling, of all the things you've talked about.

And so, all I can do now is, Thank you again, Erin, for all of your time. We'll include the, the, we'll include the links and the connections for our listeners and I urge them to follow up with you. I'm really excited by what you've dropped just then for us. And so, so thank you. And I'd also like to thank, to thank our audience.

Thank you all so much for joining us. If you'd like to find out more, please check out my website, please richardgerver. com. Subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss any future episodes. And until next time, here's to the future. [00:39:00]