[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining us. My name is Richard Gerver. I've worked in education, human development, and leadership for the last four decades. In this podcast, I'm chatting to a diverse range of people from a number of different fields, from business, sport, the arts, education, philanthropy, and throughout I'm looking to explore what our young people and organizations really need.

Richard Gerver: In order to thrive not just survive in times of increasing change and uncertainty Welcome to this episode of the learning bridge now today And those of you that have been on this little journey with me will know I do occasionally get starstruck I do occasionally get tongue tied [00:01:00] today Today I am particularly anxious and nervous because I am chatting with somebody who i'm lucky enough to describe as a dear friend But she is also In our area, a broadcasting legend a broadcasting legend.

She is already looking at me in a way that says, shut up Richard. She has had a career that has spanned over And I know if you're watching clips of this you won't believe it over a quarter of a century in broadcasting so i'm not going to go into any great detail So one of the things I do on this podcast is I don't read out.

Guests parents emails about them So i'm going to get you to talk about yourself in a second Ladies gentlemen, I would love to introduce you to a dear friend of mine. Sally pepper sally Thank you so much for taking the time to be with me

Sally Pepper: Well, I love that introduction. That'll do. That's set me up for the week now.

Thank you for that, Richard.

Richard Gerver: It's a pleasure. Just remember the pressure from this point, Sally, is that [00:02:00] you can only disappoint from there, really, frankly.

Sally Pepper: That's what I'm here for. That's usually the case.

Richard Gerver: So, look, what I'd love to do is just ask you to tell the audience some of whom I hope will tune in and think, Ooh, that's Sally, a familiar voice.

And for many, some of our guests, particularly on the other side of the Atlantic, who may not, may not know who you are. Could you tell them a little bit about you, your childhood, and just a bit about the highlights of your career?

Sally Pepper: Oh, gosh. Right. Well, I mean, I have been a broadcaster in radio and television as you say, for over a quarter of a century.

Oh! I guess my Dreams and ambitions as a little girl were not dissimilar to many little girls dreams, which was I fancied being on stage. Elaine Page was my absolute icon. I wanted to go into West End [00:03:00] theater and the musicals. I would go on many, Sunday school coach trip to the West End to see whatever big show was out at the time.

Jason Donovan touched this thumb when I met him backstage when he was in Joseph at the London Palladium. I was absolutely, I was absolutely besotted with music, everything musical. And I had a really good foundation with that because my comprehensive school just happened to have the most fantastic performing arts department and the music teacher and drama teacher saw in me something.

So I ended up always being on stage, always singing, always dancing. Seeing always getting the opportunities and we did some, we did some big shows actually. So, so that was a really good grounding. So from that point on it was like, right, this is definitely what I'm going to do. This is for me. Went to drama school and when I say drama school, this was kind of the next level from the top [00:04:00] drama schools that were impossible to get into.

And too much, my mum and dad couldn't afford to pay for me to go anyway. So it was like, right, well, what can you go? That's kind of the university. form of it. It, it doesn't exist anymore, sadly, but Bretton Hall College, which was part of Leeds University, in the beautiful setting of the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, surrounded by Henry Moore sculptures.

Fantastic place. Didn't appreciate it at the time. Go back quite often now. And that's where I had my grounding and did a degree in dramatic arts. Went to London, went to the big smoke straight after graduating, because that's what you have to do. Did the audition circuit. Put myself forward for lots of kind of the open auditions for musicals and whatever.

And I found myself very, very early on in that whole journey. Kind of looking, it was like I was having one of those moments that you see in films where the person, everything around them goes into slow mo and they're having this kind of outer body experience. And I found myself [00:05:00] doing that all the time thinking, these are not my people.

And I, I don't, I don't know what to do about this because for years I've dreamed of doing this and now I just don't fit. I can't see myself doing it. And I was in the odd kind of London fringe play, this, that and the other, not earning much money, having to have temp jobs in between. And ended up in a play where there was just me and one other actress.

and chatting to this other actress. And I said, oh, I've got a rubbish temp job. I was working at an accounts department at St. George's Hospital in Tooting. Lovely gang, but so boring. I said, I can't keep doing this. What are you doing to make ends meet? And she said, well actually, I am working for a company and we do travel reports for the radio.

And she said, you know, we just sit in a booth but we'll be on Talk Sport one minute and then BBC Essex the next and then Virgin Radio Breakfast Show with Chris Evans. His first stint on that at the time [00:06:00] because we're going back years ago and all of that and I thought, oh, that sounds really cool. And she said, well, you've got a really good voice.

Let me see. They're always looking for new people. So sure enough, literally days later, I'm called in. I'm on the top floor of Centre Point, which is the tower off Tottenham Court Road. This amazing 360 degree vista of London. And I thought I've landed. This, it was so rock and roll. It was, there were all these different studios and I thought, Oh my God, this is amazing.

So I walked in, did a bit of a demo. They kind of talked me through, you need to do this, you need to do that, recorded some stuff. And they said, right, we'll be in touch. Literally I got home and that night got a call from the editor and this must have been like Thursday or Friday. And he said, can you start Monday?

So I just went, yes. And that was it. So my kind of, my introduction to radio had started. And I had no, you know, I used to listen to radio. [00:07:00] I used to listen Sunday nights, Radio 1 chart show. finger poised over the pause button to cut out the DJ, ironically. And I used to think, how do they sit in a room on their own and talk to themselves?

I don't get it. That's, that's like, that's like stand up comedy to me. God, that's the worst job ever. Why would you put yourself through that? So I genuinely, I loved listening to radio, but thought, I would never have thought of being a presenter. And all of a sudden, I'm there. I'm on Talk Sport. I'm on, I'm talking to Chris Evans and his posse on his Virgin Breakfast show, you know, and all of this is happening.

And I thought, this is really cool. And I'm actually all right at this. I can, I mean, I've always been good at talking. I've always been told off for it in class. So, you know, why didn't I realize, why didn't the penny drop then? And sure enough, you know, over a very short period of time, a matter of months one of the stations, I, a little commercial radio station in Watford they were looking for a co host for their breakfast show.

And I had effectively [00:08:00] as their travel presenter been co hosting anyway. So they invited me in for an audition. And lo and behold, got the job. And that, that was it. That was, that was really the, the radio presenter was born. And really quite accidentally, which I hate, I hate those stories because when there are people who desperately, that's all they've wanted to do.

And then little old me goes, Oh, I just happened to meet someone. And now they've got me a job and all. Suddenly I'm on a breakfast show and you know, it makes it sound so simple. There was a lot of graft in there, but really I was very lucky. I was very lucky.

Richard Gerver: It's funny you say that. One of the things that I find that people who are successful in one form or another, who are perceived to be successful have in common is their belief that there's been as much, if not more luck involved than there has been hard graft and effort.

And I remember once saying to somebody, you know, in a way, everybody [00:09:00] has moments in their life at different degrees. Where there is a route to success But it's whether a you you spot it b you have the courage To step through it. There's a couple of things for me in what you said that i'd love to come back to you on one is Moving to london is quite a big thing Right, particularly for at that time and I don't want to be accused of being sexist here But at that time for a young woman in particular to move Down to london different age different period of time would have been quite a thing and particularly from small town derbyshire, and I know you went to to breton, but but You know, that whole thing, because I think a lot of young people grow up in regions of the country and the world and look at the big places and think, you know, not for me.

When you look back on that time, can you think of people or experiences that [00:10:00] started to galvanize, or what was it that gave you the courage to go, I'm going to get on the train, I'm going to go down to London and see if I can make something work here?

Sally Pepper: It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think, I think because I've been so set in my mind what I wanted to do from a very young age, I don't think it was ever in question because London was the place to go.

I mean, the landscape of the acting world has changed, changed. Massively. And I mean, you know, in my job, I've interviewed lots of actors and big names and all sorts and, and they, and they say the same, you know, even now, COVID obviously impacted massively. So the audition process now isn't that you have to turn up face to face, you can send a video.

Audition, you know, so it changes all the time, doesn't it? Whatever industry you're in. But I, at that time, it was a very traditional route of you want to make it, you want to get an agent, [00:11:00] London, London, London, you know, it's since become Manchester is, is just as good. And Liverpool is fantastic. And, you know, so things have opened up with the cities, but that, that time there was no question.

So I don't. I don't know whether that's just because that was in me, but actually when I think about me and my kind of career and journey as a whole, I've never been one to be scared of, I'm going to do that now. And maybe, and maybe that's just an inner confidence, or, I don't know, the inner, the inner show off in me or whatever, because you, that's got to be in me for the career I had.

But I just think I, I've never been one to, You know, if an opportunity came up now and it was like, right, you've got to move to Australia, yes, there's a lot more kind of pieces to juggle because kids are in the factor now and whatever, but I wouldn't shy away from it. You know, if it was the right thing to do, you go and do it.

And I don't think I've ever questioned, I've never been one [00:12:00] to question that.

Richard Gerver: Can I just say, Sally, as a side point here, you know, given the age your kids and my kids are, opportunity comes up in Australia. I'm gone. I'm gone. I'm gone. You know?

Sally Pepper: Yes. Well, you know, I mean, I absolutely, you're absolutely right.

And, and I, and I think, I think life is too short for people to overthink stuff and to go, yeah, oh, I don't, I don't know whether I could do that at all. I've always done it this way. No, that doesn't mean it's the right, that doesn't mean what you've been doing so far is wrong. But it doesn't also mean this opportunity is wrong.

You know, I think you should try and grab things with both hands as often as you can. And even if inwardly you're thinking this is absolutely terrifying, I think you should do it. I mean, you know, case in point, obviously I'm kind of massively fast forwarding. But literally over a year ago, I took the.

[00:13:00] really brave or stupid, as some people might say, step to take redundancy. Having only ever been a presenter, that's all I'd ever done, you know, radio, television, sit me somewhere, I will talk for Britain. And, you know, all of a sudden that's gone. And then you kind of go, right, I've, I've got to reinvent myself at my age, you know, but again.

You know, sometimes if you were hindsight, if I'd had hindsight, I might have gone no way, no way, don't do it. But I'm actually glad I didn't have that in a voice, even though I was terrified. Something in me said, yeah, it is going to be scary. It's going to be a bumpy road. You don't actually know what you're doing, but you do know you don't want to do this anymore.

This is not working for you, this is not good for you, and you're being offered some money, so that's a little bit of a cushion. So again, you know, I've kind of, I do tend to go for [00:14:00] things.

Richard Gerver: There's two questions I want to come back to. One is at the back end of what you just said, one's at the front end, because one of the things that fascinates me is that even as a young woman, you were prepared to Walk in space tethered to the Space Shuttle.

It's one of the things I often say to people, right? People will walk in space as long as they know all the safety precautions are in place and they can go back to the Space Shuttle. And if you don't mind me getting a bit personal, when you look back on your childhood, what role do you think your family played in giving you the confidence to trust your instincts?

Sally Pepper: Well, I mean, they were, they were big supporters of I mean, I've got an older sister who is totally different to me, which is quite often the case with siblings. She's a physicist. She went into private school, education, head of [00:15:00] science, you know, all of that. So very different. And you know, she got a proper job.

And then there was me, the younger sister. I just want to be on stage. I want everybody to look at me. Which, of course, he could have gone, Oh my, just get real, will you, Sal? Come on, how are you gonna earn money? But actually, they never did that. And they, you know, encouraged me, they supported me with my performances you know, they were I mean, they still are.

You know, I had a conversation with my dad only yesterday, and he's like, oh, I've just listened to your latest podcast, and oh, it was really good. I mean, when I was on, when I was full time on the radio, he was a nightmare, because he'd quite often say oh, well, my favorite presenter's that other one. So my dad's always kept me real.

But I mean, you know, you could tell, you could tell where the same person as well, because [00:16:00] we kind of say as it is, and probably could do with a bit of a self edit from time to time. But I suppose after years of knowing each other, we still rub each other up the wrong way, but we still love each other at the end of the day.

So yeah, I suppose, I suppose my dad's character in that respect of saying it as it is, you know, if I guess if he turned around and said, Come on, get real. I probably would have listened because I know he would be honest with me and he never did that. So I suppose that gave me the confidence of, all right, if my dad's not saying this is stupid don't do it, then, you know, maybe there is a reason for me to believe in myself.

Richard Gerver: It's, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because that idea of those of us that have been fortunate enough to have parents behind us has been a significant, it often makes me think as a former educator doing the job I used to do often in the areas I used to do it, that the assumption that [00:17:00] children will be able to walk in space is almost.

wrongly taken for granted Because if you take that away, I mean I had it with my mother So my I was actually on a previous episode of the podcast saying somebody My mother was an incredibly talented musician as a young woman. I mean as a as a 17, 18, 19 year old girl to the point where she wrote the what the wedding waltz for her and my father's wedding.

The music lasted longer than the marriage, which is, you know, but, but she wrote the wedding waltz. But so she was very musical, but she was raised in a very aspirational Northwest London Jewish home. And in that day and age, even prior to our generation, the idea of a young woman in particular in aspirational, affluent, middle class London going into a career of the arts or creativity, excuse, by the way, to all listeners, if you can hear [00:18:00] growling in the background, my dog and my daughter's dog are currently having a falling out.

And that's the nature of home recording podcast. So, but the idea of her. Having any sort of career in the arts would have been an absolute no no, you know, in that day and age it was you are going to, we're going to get you the right marriage, you'll be married into the right home but the point is that that gave her enormous empathy for me when I was growing up and was very artistic and very creative, wants to be an actor, wants to do all those things, and a bit like your father, she did nothing but encourage me, and it's funny because it's only in later life.

life, I actually realized how courageous she was. And I'm sure we can reflect on this as we go through. But it's as a parent yourself, you start to realize how courageous our parents were to allow us to take what may have looked like the daft option rather than the sensible option.

Sally Pepper: Actually, because my, [00:19:00] my dad was that generation of, I mean, he did, he, he came out of school with, with no qualifications.

You know, the typical one, couldn't wait to leave school. In actual fact, he had a really tough time because he, at the time, they couldn't diagnose the fact that he was dyslexic.

Richard Gerver: Right.

Sally Pepper: And he also wanted to write left handed. So was, had the slipper or had the cane across his hand because he was fighting with the wrong hand.

Kids used to have their

Richard Gerver: hand tied behind their back.

Sally Pepper: Yep. So he had all of that. So I mean, you're not going to enjoy school, are you? That's, that's, that's the end of that. But yeah, he came out of school with nothing. And he, he did a whole variety of different jobs. I mean, the list is ridiculous. You know, his CV, there's, there aren't enough pages to fit it.

And but eventually, you know, he built up and he got, you know, he had to prove himself [00:20:00] a lot. Because he met my mom, her mom and dad didn't think he was good enough, really tried to push against them getting married. They did get married, which is amazingly strong because actually they didn't have. My mom, my mom's parents backing.

And I think that probably spurred him on as well as a kind of, I'm going to prove you wrong. And he went on to have a really successful business and, you know, set up on his own. And so showed, showed that resilience throughout. And, you know, I don't, I'm not sure the relationship with my mom's parents was ever a hundred percent because there was always going to be that in the background, but he certainly did prove.

Himself to them

Richard Gerver: and isn't that interesting because in a way that's then fed from him into the spirit of his daughters And yes, you And that that kind of desire and need to i'll show you i'm gonna succeed i'm gonna push through i'll find a [00:21:00] route which brings me on to the bookend of the question I was going to ask you based on what you were talking about and that is One of the common questions everybody gets asked is if you were writing a letter to the 14 year old you what would you say?

I'm not going to ask you that what I am going to ask you though is similar But going back those two or three years, because I remember that moment in your career where, you know, you took that decision and it was unbelievably courageous. And I think sometimes people make the mistake of thinking people that make those decisions move on in their lives and find new journeys and avenues.

Somehow it was all rosy and, you know, and squirty cream with a cherry on top and it wasn't, it isn't. And I, what I'd love to know. Is just looking back over that short period, Sally, because you were, for the best term possible, institutionalized for a long time in the BBC. What would you tell the Sally, [00:22:00] two or three years ago, that you've learned since, that you wished you'd known as a younger Presenter a younger journalist

Sally Pepper: Yeah, I do.

You know, I really do wish I had made the decision much earlier I mean the decision to take Redundancy and a kind of little security blanket pot of money wasn't Wasn't given to me. So that probably changes it. But I think if I'd known, I would have, you know, to kind of go out on my own. I'm kind of kicking myself to have not done it earlier.

Because, you know, you want, you want, with age, you want the wisdom. So certainly got that. And certainly had moments where I've realized I don't think I can work with you. And if I was a 20 something, I'd be working with everybody and regretting it. But actually I'm, I'm wise enough to go, you know what, I've sussed it and I don't think this is going to [00:23:00] be a working relationship.

And I think I'm just going to really diplomatically say not, not this time. But it would be nice to have a bit of the energy. Of a 20, 30 something, because it's hard work, right? It's hard work setting up on your own. And you know, nobody says to you about, oh, you're going to have loads of sleepless nights wondering, okay, where's my money coming in next month?

So I'm not going to sugar coat it because it is, it is stressful. But when you do have those moments of I did that. Somebody paid me for that. And I did that myself and no, nobody else helped me that was, that was all me. And you know, they've, they've put a really nice recommendation on LinkedIn about me because they thought what I did was good.

And it's not under the umbrella of, you know, Sally Pepper, BBC or, or whatever, it's, it's just Sally Pepper and that's, that's quite, that's quite rewarding. I think as [00:24:00] well, obviously cause I set up the media company, but it's given me the chance to, to go into education for the first time in my life. So, you know, I'm now working with university students, teaching them journalism, teaching them broadcast journalism.

And the buzz you get, I mean, I don't have to tell you. But I know, because it's new to me, the buzz I get out of, you know, inspiring people, getting them energized, you know, getting them excited about, right, we're going, you're going to go out and you're going to put a TV package together. What? Yeah. And you're going to come back and say, I can't do it.

Yes, but you can, you really can. And then they come back and they're like, no, I did that. And just the fact that you've been able to nudge them, you know, and show them the basics and just go out and do it. And then seeing that joy on their face, it's like. Yes, that is such a win. That is, it's amazing. I wish I'd done that sooner.

Richard Gerver: Yeah, no, [00:25:00] I mean, you're, you're, you're obviously you're talking to the converter, but you're right. You know that, that, and there's something about legacy there, right? There's something about passing on and sit and empowering and doing all of those very special things. And it kind of links. It's very loosely, Richard, Richard on a dodgy segue here.

I want to go back to something you just said, which is about praise, because I think there's a really interesting parallel for those listeners who are working in and around education with young people. And I think what fascinates me, you know, I remember when you made the announcement that you were leaving your job and you had become one of the voices.

of our region on BBC radio. You, you were really that privilege of being literally part of people's lives and daily routine. And I remember the comments on social media when people started to try to come to terms with you leaving. And now, you know, it was extraordinary. And in a way, it's funny, isn't it?

Because And I'm [00:26:00] not saying this isn't about complacency, Sally, but in a way, because it was a job you'd done for so long and knew you did well, it was very galvanising and lovely, but it didn't give you the confidence to step outside that comfort zone in a way. It just made you, it's like, have you ever had that moment where you think, I'd quite like to be at my own funeral to know what people really thought of me?

Sally Pepper: Oh, do you know what? It's funny you say that. We've got a crematorium just down the road from where we live, right? And there are days where clearly someone who is so popular has died. And that, I mean, you can't move for parked cars, you know, they're all along the main road and everything. They fill the car park, they're on side streets.

It's amazing. And the times I've driven past and gone. I think the car park's too big for the amount of people who are going to turn up at mine. I'll rent a crowd, [00:27:00] don't worry. Just

Richard Gerver: trust me, we'll do rent a crowd if we need. But yeah, and so going back, you know, that thing about praise, it's fascinating, isn't it?

Because in a way, my guess is you have gained more self confidence from those small wins and the praise you've received in the three years since you left the BBC. Because they've been for things that scared you, worried you, things that were unknown to you, or things you had to master. And I just wonder what your take is on that, that actually, you know, we've got to be very careful about how we praise people, right?

If we just overpraise them for what they know they can do, is that really helping?

Sally Pepper: I, I think I think the praise things are really interesting one and having worked with lots of different sectors now, you know, I'm working with businesses within all different industries that I've never done before and it is The thing that comes back, [00:28:00] so it's not about just being, you know, in the communications industry, in the broadcasting industry, it's about generally those companies, those managers who have the weight of the world on their shoulders.

Have to meet a million targets each month, but actually just finding that time to, to give that feedback to your staff, to give them that sense of worth and to give them that sense of. I've appreciated you, you know, just every once in a while. Oh, it's, it's worth more. Well, there's just no money to equate to it.

It is worth so, so much to people. And I've, you know, I've worked with companies who just do it right. And they're few and far between, but the difference, you know, you have staff there. who will never leave you. You [00:29:00] have staff there who have left, but come back because they can't bear to be away, genuinely.

And you think, you know what? It's not taking them, they're still meeting their targets. They're still managing to do everything, but actually they're now winning awards and they have amazing staff retention. And yeah. Just that, taking that extra time to give that bit of praise for even the tiniest thing, it doesn't matter, will really, just makes a massive difference, huge difference, yeah.

Richard Gerver: And that brings me on again, I suppose, to, one of the things, you know, given the length of your career, And particularly in an organization like the BBC, which often hires the brightest young things. It can because of its global reputation.

Sally Pepper: Yeah, I slipped through the net, Richard. Well, every

Richard Gerver: so often, Sal, they, you know, somebody has to you have to fulfill some quota.

And you know, no, no, honestly, praise. It's, you know, let me, let me be the one. Listen, [00:30:00] listeners, if you never hear from Sally on my podcast again, you know why. One of the things I'm really interested in, because I've got two more questions to ask you to, to, and then, then we'll kind of round off.

But the first is, have you noticed, because there's a lot of talk about this. in all kinds of sectors. Do you think in that time you've noticed a difference in young people coming into the workplace attitudinally, skills wise? And if so, what would you say were the, you know, the biggest differences you've seen in your career, in the attitudes or skill sets of those people coming into the profession?

Sally Pepper: I think I mean, looking, looking at my industry, because that's where I've got the most kind of experience and I've been able to observe more. I've certainly seen in more recent years, you know, kind of new people coming in, who on the one hand, I mean, they've, they've got A much greater, a much broader skill set.

You know, when I came into the [00:31:00] industry, you know, I was a presenter, that was it. You're just that. Whereas now you have to be multi skilled. So, you know, I think brilliant. You're, you're, you are, you are definitely starting out in the right place because you have this broader skill set. And attitude wise, it's an interesting one.

Because on the one hand, there's this sense of And I don't understand it, because I would work all hours, I would work any shift you give me, I was hungry to do it, you know, I, I, you want to send me out to do some voxers with people, I'm terrified but I'll go and do it. Whereas you get new people coming in now, and I've seen it time and time again, who, who don't even pick up a phone.

because they're not used to it, who certainly don't go out and talk to a stranger. What you want me to, and they'll, they'll, they'll put it off for hours. And then by the end of the day, it's like, did you go and get that recording? Oh, I ran out of time. And we've seen it time and time again. So [00:32:00] there's, there's that weird kind of, this is what they've been brought up with.

So they're not good with general conversation, which is worrying in a broadcasting industry, because frankly, that's a really basic skill. But having said that. I do envy them slightly because they have that ability and that right to say no, I'm not doing that. You can't ask me to do that kind of shift or two shifts back to back because actually that's, that's illegal.

You can't be doing that. That's breaking all kinds of rules. I would never have dared to say that. I should have done. I would have had absolutely the right. But I was terrified that I would lose my job.

Richard Gerver: Because

Sally Pepper: you were always on a knife's edge with it. There's always going to be someone else who can take over.

You know, think yourself lucky you've got this job. That was always the attitude of managing broadcasters. And that has massively changed thankfully. [00:33:00] But yeah, I do, I do think they now have a bit more control over what they want to do and what they're going to accept. And I think our generation weren't very good at that.

Richard Gerver: Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's kind of pros and cons, aren't there? Because that drive and that, you know, I remember as a young teacher being one of the first pieces of advice I was given because I joined the profession at a time where there were lots of public sector cuts. There were lots of teachers being made redundant and the best piece of advice I was given was make yourself indispensable and actually in some ways.

I think it's, it's a really important piece of advice for any generation, any person walking into any workplace, because you never know, dear. And I think that you're right, that delicate balance about looking after yourself and making sure that you're not taken advantage of. But with that idea, that you have to make yourself indispensable, [00:34:00] prove yourself, which kind of, I mean, kind of loosely leads me on to like, Final question.

So again, you hinted at it in that answer on two levels, Sally, you know, you are, and here's the praise bit. You are a world class communicator in so many levels. And we haven't got time to talk about it today. But from my experience of working with you, that is as much the art of listening as it is talking.

And we've got a lot of people listening here who are teachers who are learning to be educators and Hopefully obviously a lot of people who either are young people or work with young people if you had a couple of top tips For what makes really skilled communication. What would they be?

Sally Pepper: Well, I mean you've you've hit the first one my biggest one is, is the ability to listen.

And I think people often think that's an odd thing for a presenter to [00:35:00] say. There are far too many presenters and you what, you watch, watch the telly with a bit more, you know, watch it more closely with me having said this. Listen to the presenters on the radio a little bit more carefully. There are those who do it brilliantly.

And there are those who are too busy enjoying the sound of their own voice and. A, that's disrespectful because why have you invited a guest onto your show if you don't want to hear what they've got to say? But also, you know, listeners, they, they want you there as the presenter. They want that relationship with you.

You give of yourself, and this is any communication, you give of yourself in order that they will have that relationship with you so that they trust. And that's the second point I was going to bring up. So listening and trust. are the two things. So you build that relationship, you give of yourself, because if [00:36:00] you're expecting them to give of themselves, they need to know, well, she was willing, she's put herself out there, so I trust that, and I trust she's going to look after me now.

The reason that they know that they can trust me and they're in safe hands is because they know I'm listening. They know I'm not. As you've been doing today, Richard, here's your praise. You know, you haven't just got a list of questions and you haven't just gone, right, let Sally speak, dadadada, right, next one.

You have listened and you've come back with, all right, you made that point. Can I go back to that? And that makes me feel like I'm totally safe and I'll say whatever you like. And you can get as personal as you want because I know I'm in safe hands. And that's not because you and I are friends. That's because you have made me feel I'm in a safe space.

So they would be the two things and they go hand in hand. If you are going to be a good communicator. If you are going to earn the respect of the people you're communicating to, you have to [00:37:00] make them realise they can trust you. So you build that trust and you listen.

Richard Gerver: Brilliant. Oh my goodness me. Honestly, I've, I didn't listen to anything else except for Richard.

You were wonderful. But I'm hoping the other listeners got that. That's all I heard was very wonderful. But as we wrap up Sally, and I'll thank you properly in a second. Can I ask you, because This has been so fascinating and I, I genuinely think we could probably stay on and do another hour. There's so much more.

But how can people connect with you and find out more about you and what you do?

Sally Pepper: Well, I, I'm still, I am still broadcasting. I mean, my business is called Pepperdoors Media, and you can find me on the website. And that's about working with businesses and helping them make their own podcasts. I can make podcasts for them.

I do lots of hosting events. But I, but my little baby, because I [00:38:00] wanted to make sure I was still broadcasting is called Truly Madly Darby. Because Obviously Derby and Derbyshire are the places I have broadcast the most in, they are the places where still every day I will bump into someone, oh it's Sally Pepper, oh I'll really miss you on the radio, which is lovely.

So I always say, well you can listen to me, I'm truly madly Derby. So it's all about Derby and Derbyshire. And the kind of strap line is celebrating Derby and Derbyshire with the voices who love it and live it. But it is about, I mean, I get people from around the world who have a connection to Derby or Derbyshire.

Usually it's where they were born or whatever, and they just say it's great. Because I have that connection again and I miss it and I just want, or it might be just somebody's visited it and wants to find out more. So you know, it's a really nice kind of, it was described by a chap who listens in Australia as a good Derbyshire hug.

And I thought, yeah, that's it. I've nailed it. If that's, if that's how you're [00:39:00] describing it, then I've done my job. Well, so yeah, so you can find me there and have a listen and get in touch as well.

Richard Gerver: Brilliant, and so wherever you're listening in the world here, and particularly if you're on the other side of the Atlantic, and Derby was your home, you'd like it to be your home, you visited us, please get in touch with Sally and listen in, because it is, as somebody that's lived in Derby most of my adult life, it is absolutely a Derbyshire hug, and Sally, thank you so much for your time today, it has honestly been an absolute pleasure, and good luck with everything that happens from here on in, but

Sally Pepper: Richard.

I've really enjoyed it. Brilliant.

Richard Gerver: And to the rest of you, thank you so much for joining us. If you'd like to find out more, please check out my website, richardgirver. com, and of course subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss any future episodes. But until next time, to the future. [00:40:00]