Richard Gerver: Hi, and thanks for joining us. My name is Richard Gerber. I've worked in education, human development, and leadership for, can't believe I'm saying this still the last three decades. And I know I'm looking at myself on Zoom going, I can't possibly be old enough. And, and I'm right. In this podcast series, I'm gonna be chatting to a diverse range of.

Amazing people from a number of different fields, from business, sports, the arts education, philanthropy. And what I want to do is explore what our young people and our organizations need to, to thrive, not just to survive. In the times of increasing change and uncertainty we find ourselves. So welcome to the Learning Bridge, and today my guests are two.

[00:01:00] Extraordinary people, and I'm gonna get them to to shine a spotlight on themselves in a minute. But all I can tell you is you know, through my life, I've always believed I'm a good person doing good things. And every so often, I'm sure many of you will have come across people who you go away thinking, I need to review that a bit.

Because every so often you meet people who are. Just very, very special. And these two people, I'm proud enough to call friends are very, very special.

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Guest Introduction: David and Carrie Grant

Richard Gerver: So welcome to the podcast, David and Carrie Grant. Hey, I'm so proud to have you here. Can you tell our listeners, many of whom are on the other side of the Atlantic, just a little bit about yourselves.

David and Carrie's Personal Journey

David Grant: Well, we are a couple. We've been married for 35 years. I can't believe that I have managed to hang on to this one for 35 years. We have three, four children, three of whom are diagnosed on the autism spectrum all [00:02:00] of whom are neurodivergent and. It's been an education for us. We've felt that. We've discovered, rather that was a result of this.

We've had to constantly learn. I was having a conversation just yesterday with Carrie about the fact that most people feel as though they reach a certain age or a certain stage in their life where they know everything they need to know for the life they want to live. And we've never had that luxury because of the children we have.

And in a way that has turned out to be a massive blessing. 'cause it's meant that we have just had to keep on learning and we've had to keep on growing.

Carrie Grant: This is such an answer that you get when you ask. Tell us a bit about yourselves, and the first thing we do is tell you about our four children. So tell, tell me a bit about ourselves, because I think, I mean, maybe I'm wrong here, but I think what you meant was what do we what's our life been like?

S

Transition into the Arts and Entertainment Industry

Carrie Grant: o we went into the arts, both of us when we were in our teens, early twenties with David, early twenties probably. Yes. [00:03:00] Yeah. David had a lot of hit records back in the eighties. I was a dancer on one of the main TV shows here in the uk. And called Top of the Pops is our pop show. And then both of us kind of, when we met in 86, we were singing, I was also singing, had record deals and stuff.

And David and I sort of evolved into being people who wanted to introduce people into the industry. So that was, that became a really big part of what we were doing in terms of singers. So we would be asked to put a choir together for Diana Ross, and they'd be like, we need 20 people. And what we would do is we would take 10 people who were absolute consummate professionals, and then we would bring 10 people in who were brilliant singers, but had never been given an opportunity.

And so this is kind of where we started. Then we became vocal coaches. That just kind of evolved out of another job we were doing. And very quickly we began to work with. Incredible people in the arts here in the UK and in the States and, and, and worked there and did that for a number of years. A

Impact of Fame and Success

Carrie Grant: nd then of course, the TV talent shows [00:04:00] came along and we were the natural choice for.

Being the vocal coaches and then judges on those shows. And so we, we judged a TV show here called Fame Academy for a number of years. We were on a series called Pop Idol, which became

David Grant: American Idol over in the States. Yeah.

Raising Neurodivergent Children and Advocacy

Carrie Grant: And then within all of that, we were, as David just alluded to, we were raising our children.

Three birth, one adopted, all neurodivergent, all very complex. WoRking out how to become the parents that we needed to be for these children to shapeshift everything that we'd ever thought about parenting, to work for these children at the same time as fighting. I hate the word fighting, but we were fighting impossible systems.

Impenetrable services that just weren't working in were adequate our children's favor, and so. Because of the, i, I guess the, the profile that we had gained from the television work that we were [00:05:00] doing. We were able to use that as a currency, if you like, to start groups, to lobby, to campaign, to raise awareness, to do everything we can.

You know, there's, there's, there's lots of things you can do with success and fame, but for us. I guess because fame for me particularly came late in life, was in my late thirties, as opposed to being 20 like David was with his hits. Um, your your, your desires are a little different. And so we are, look, we immediately thought, okay, we are transforming people within our coaching.

We are helping people to find their voices. How do we find voices for these neurodivergent people? Mm-Hmm. And then, which

David Grant: means transforming systems.

Carrie Grant: Yeah. And then how do we help with our children? Also mixed race. So how do we help children find their voices when they're autistic and mixed race? And then when our children you know, came out as non-binary or trans, how do we help our children that also sit on the [00:06:00] L-G-B-T-Q-I-A spectrum?

And so all those intersections as well as being a Jew-Maican marriage, and a neuro spicy family. I'm also just been diagnosed as autistic, so how can we speak into all of those areas? How do we give people voices? It's not just about singers now, it's gone way beyond that. How do we give people voice?

How do we give teachers a voice? How do we give anybody a voice right now? I. It's so nuts out there. Everyone's screaming and no one's really being heard. No one's listening. Yeah. So actually I feel like I've just told you more than I didn't answer your question either. No, you both

Richard Gerver: badly. You both absolutely.

Honestly, you both absolutely did that. That's exactly what I wanted. And I'm gonna plug it for you because you just didn't, and you have a book, which I think wraps so much of that. That that came out, was it this year? Earlier this year, yes. Called a very modern family. Mm-Hmm. Which is extraordinary. And, and I urge anyone wherever they're listening to this to get themselves onto Amazon and buy it, because I think it's, if you really wanna dig [00:07:00] in to David and Carrie and their story, and particularly their passion for everything they do stemming from their family, please, please.

Read it. If I, if I can, I want to take you both back a little bit.

Reflections on Personal Growth and Self-Perception

Richard Gerver: And I want to, I wanna embrace everything you've talked about and come onto it because I think it's hugely important. But there are things that strike me about you both. That I think are really interesting in really general terms.

The first is the fact that you are both so extraordinarily adaptable. You've spent most of your lives as freelancers, and I mean that not just in professional terms, almost in in personal terms too. You both. Moved into a field that and I know certainly from your background, Carrie, as, as a Northwest London Jew, like myself and I wanted to be an actor.

I, I announced to my parents I wanted to be an actor. They were divorced, which was lucky really because my father, they divorced as a result

David Grant: of you saying you

Richard Gerver: wanted to be an actor. They would've done David for sure. But my, my father was [00:08:00] devastated because there's no acting qualification that carries anology.

And my mother was all for it. So my mother came from a very musical background and, and was passionate about the arts. My father was like, I mean, thank God I lived with my mother, but I. You know, the fact that you both ended up being able to build careers in the arts, what do you think, if anything, was it about your own childhoods, your own families that gave you the confidence to take those steps and become the people you are?

I think

David Grant: the people in the arts often come from two very different directions. I mean, from numerous backgrounds, but usually fall into one of two categories. Either people who have been endorsed for having a talent really early on, and for some of us it's the only place we're ever endorsed is the only place that we're ever noticed.

It's the only time that anybody says you are good at this. aNd so it becomes [00:09:00] almost like the, the vehicle by which we get approval. Mm-Hmm. It's like the conduit of recognition. And I think that particularly if you've grown up like myself where it was sort of very much an immigrant background. You know, I arrived in Britain when I was three from Jamaica, and in those days, certainly there was a lot of exclusion.

There was a lot of difference. And your people treated you like you were different. Here's the one place that I was getting affirmation. Here's the one place I was getting significance. Went out in my mouth and sang and people went, wow, you can really sing. It wasn't my only interest. In fact, I was, there were other things that I wanted to do.

I wanted to be a doctor. When I was 12, my mother, who was incredibly perceptive, one day I said, mom, I want to be a doctor. She said, no, darling, you want to go on stage and play a doctor? And I was like. Yeah, you're right actually. So the doctors aren't like the ones you see on tv, babe. It's like you know, so, and, and, and she was [00:10:00] absolutely right.

I wanted to perform. And I, I think that actually that's what drove me the desire I. To have my voice heard, because I think that even though it wasn't just my singing voice, it was that I had opinions that I wanted to express. I had views that I wanted to share. I felt I had things I wanted to say, and and, and music was my absolute passion.

But more than that, I discovered when I, when I made music, people started listening to it. That my passion was also communicating. I really wanted to share with people, which is why. I suppose that's another reason why some other people go in, not just because it's the thing they feel they're best at, but because they really feel that I've got something I want to share.

And, and even if, even if five people want to hear it, even if I've got an audience of 10 people that want to come and watch me sing, dance, act, whatever. I've got to let it out. It's, it's[00:11:00] it's like the noun and the verb thing. Some things you can do, some things are an expression of who you are.

And if they're an expression of who you are, you can walk away from them, but you'll keep coming back to them. And that's what it was with me and music. Carrie, I think it was slightly different 'cause Carrie was trained. I, I kind of like, I didn't have any money in those days. We didn't have, we were a poor family, so I kind of started off by just, just doing it.

Just joining groups. Carrie, on the other hand,

Carrie Grant: oh yeah, I trained, but I would say similarly in, in, in what David has said, I, I think for me, I needed to survive my childhood. It was full of violence and all kinds of rubbish going on. And so for me. Coming into the industry at the age of 16, I was like, I just need to earn my own money, get my own property.

I want recognition. I want to matter somewhere. I want to be somebody. And and our industry is interesting 'cause it does chew people up and spit them [00:12:00] out. But if you have any and even an ounce of. Mobility to process, you will work your initial needs out. So why I came into the industry. And then what that evolved into changed as I got older and I realized, actually now I've been on I did a thing called the Eurovision Song Contest here in the uk, big competition.

We were on the front of every single newspaper at that point. You and I was 17. And you know, you put your head on the pillow at night and you are still the same person. Mm-Hmm. Damn it. What is that? You know, I don't feel any better about myself. Hang on a minute. And it's, it's terrible. How awful. Because now I don't feel any, any, I don't feel better about myself.

Everyone knows who I am. I'm gonna get dis, I'm gonna get seen, I'm gonna get discovered in a, in all the wrong ways. And it found out. And so fame can be very threatening. But if you have the time to process it and the ability to [00:13:00] process it, which I guess. Life the way it worked. I had that ability. You can then say, make something really beautiful out of it.

Then it becomes, this gift sits within me and wow, I am so lucky and fortunate to have this gift. How wonderful. I wanna share it now I want to share it because it's a gift. And in the sharing it, wouldn't it be great if there was a way of. Seeing transformation in other people. And also, wouldn't it be great to tell other people what I've been through?

And wouldn't it be great for those people that are just coming into industry just like I was with all the wrong reasons? Rather than just saying, shutting them down and telling 'em they're too needy. How about just helping them to process some of that Mm-Hmm. So they, they can use those gifts and. So that's kind of how it evolved for me.

But I think, yeah, like many people, David and I both came in because we were really needy. Hmm.

David Grant: And it's interesting, there's an evolution of gift, I think, and there's an evolution of [00:14:00] gifting and it really takes time that it, it moves from, if I give you this gift, you are gonna like me to, I like you, so I want to give you this gift.

It's a completely different mindset. It's, look, it's like saying at the stage of life that we are at, it's like saying, look, we have something we want to share. Mm-Hmm. I can't, I can't make you take it, but here it is.

Richard Gerver: It's also, I mean, as you're both talking, it's really interesting because something that your, your entire lives have radiated around this.

The, the idea of love is, is really interesting to me here. You've both come from very different. Kinds of backgrounds, but you keep talking about this thing about need. You know, for me, one of the things that always strikes me or struck me when I was an educator is the backgrounds our children bring with them.

To their education environment. Right. That, that both of you have described very different backgrounds, but you both would've walked into schools as [00:15:00] students, right. And, and a lot of the time, a lot of the people who were there to care and educate, you wouldn't necessarily have known those things.

No.

Carrie Grant: What we were raised by though is we were both raised by mothers who were desperate for us to be approved of. Yeah. So for different reasons. Yeah. You know, and, and I think being David can speak from that kind of immigrant experience, I think there is a slightly different experience to mine. But mine was that I was the only child in my class of divorced parents and my mom was really like, we're just as good as anybody else.

You need to get out there and make sure everyone knows you're just as good as everybody else. David had the same kind of messaging. We just as good as everybody else. Yeah. Just because the color of our skin. Yeah. So going to school, I think David and I were natural performers and natural people pleasers, and now I realize, now I've found out I'm autistic, a natural masker.

So there is that thing of fitting in at school and we, we kind of did well at school, I think. I [00:16:00] dunno how that happened because we are definitely both neurodivergent, but we did manage to do well. We both enjoyed school. For me, school was the only safe place that I went to. So yeah, for me it was great. I was like going home was the problem.

It was really not the school. I think maybe slightly different

David Grant: for you. Slightly different for me. And one, one thing that I've learned, I've learned sort of in the interim between school and now is, is, is what you just said. Richard, which is the people bring themselves to school. They bring their homes, they bring the, you know the yelling parent.

They bring the demanding parent, they bring the absent parent, they bring the approving parent. And sometimes we look at a child and say, that child's doing really well because they've gone from 60% to 65%. That child isn't doing so well. They've gone from 10% to 40%, and we just go, well, they're behind the other one.

Not realizing that they've made a bigger journey. Mm. And that bigger journey is so much about where you come from and the environment that you come from, and what you bring in with you. [00:17:00]

Richard Gerver: Also sorry you both talk in a way, this thing about performance, which is interesting is the need to be loved.

The need to be, and you know, part of that need to be loved is to give, generosity is part of that, right? Part of the reason why we, we give is because it, it makes us feel better about we feel it, it's love. The real issues for me, two things, and it, it resonates. One of the other people I've spoken to on this podcast a, a guy called Karthik Krishnan came from a very traditional Indian background to, to go on and achieve in his own way, amazing things.

But one of the things he talked a lot about was the power and importance to him of community, finding his community, and then being in a community of people that are lifted up and supported. And the other one is this sense of empowerment. And I wonder Carrie, you talked about this thing about how, how we succeeded at school.

I think to an extent, sometimes it, it's this sense that you are empowered and you have to be, you have to be responsible for that. I think that's, I dunno if I'm [00:18:00] putting where, but it's that thing about that lesson you learned. You know, I, in many ways, I think you and I, Carrie had very scarily similar backgrounds.

Both came from the same neck of the, in fact, we probably knew each other as children, who knew? But. I think it's that, that sense of, that sense of, of very early on, although you can't be eloquent about it as a child, it's knowing that the way you get on is you have to grasp it and do it. You have to.

Carrie Grant: Yes.

Yeah. I think there are two things. Something you said there about belonging. I think something I only heard this year, I think was the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Mm-Hmm mm. The opposite of belonging is not, not belonging. The opposite of belonging

David Grant: is fitting in, being a shapeshifter and contorting yourself into a shape that's not yours in

Carrie Grant: order to fit.

Yeah. So I learned very early on how to fit in. Not the same as belonging. I didn't feel that belonging to a lot later in life. Belonging is something else.

Richard Gerver: Sorry to interrupt. I need to let you continue 'cause it's it. It sparked [00:19:00] something in me. When do you think both of you was the first time you looked in a mirror and actually were able to smile and went, actually this is me.

Do you know what I mean by that? Such a.

Carrie Grant: You know, again, I think, and I'm gonna over this is probably a, a sweeping statement, but I think that for neurotypical people, there is this big race and education supports this. A big race to the age of 21. mm-Hmm. Where education is complete. We know where we are going.

We know what we are doing. We are gonna go now into the world. 'cause we are world ready. We're on track for life. We're, we're match fit and we are ready. Mm-Hmm. I think for neurodivergent, people like myself, I think the development is very different. It's much slower. Mm-Hmm. And, but there's the potential for.

Exponential growth at the age of 40, even more growth at the age of 50. I'm 58 and two years ago I signed up for, to do a master's in theology. So I'm [00:20:00] studying now. Not to say neurotypical people don't do that too, but I think there is a, a growing sense of I'm sitting in my skin comfortably when school doesn't fit you and maybe life experiences don't fit either.

It takes a bit longer. You've got trauma, you've gotta work that stuff out. So I think it does take longer for me, actually, success and fame that I got at the age of 37. It was really helpful. I, I, most people will say, oh, phone never helps you. I disagree. Phone really helped me. It meant that people would come and just talk to me because they'd seen me on the telly.

I, I love this. I really love people. So this is wonderful. This has really helped me socially in a way that I, like

just uh, to be more, more socially comfortable. So I think that's this. The process of growth and feeling comfortable in your own skin.

I'm still working on that, you know. But you mentioned earlier about two things. You said belonging and empowerment. [00:21:00] And the one thing I do want to say for my. For all the things that were going on at home. My mom, a hundred percent believed in me. Mm-hmm. As far as she was concerned, I was the most beautiful girl on earth.

These, these are not great values for later on I had to work some of this stuff out. But actually you are the most beautiful girl out there, and you are the best dancer. Mm-Hmm. You know, you are amazing and when you get on a stage, the stage lights up. My mom never veered from that opinion of me.

Everything I did, she was proud of everything, any success. When I became a dancer on Televis, she was like, I can't believe it. This is, you are wonderful. And I didn't realize that people didn't grow up with that level of encouragement. Mm-hmm. My mom always encouraged me. So even though there was all this other crazy violence going on with boyfriends and dads and.

Abuse and all kinds of stuff. That really held me because my mom never changed her view of me. She always believed in me. She's like, you [00:22:00] go out into the world and you take the world by storm 'cause that's who you are. And so. That's embedded. If that's embedded really young, even all this other trauma, somehow that bit of truth sits within you, and I can't shift on that.

I do think I'm a lovely person. I think I'm a really good mom. If I sound boastful, I'm sorry, but I would rather think that than think of myself badly. I don't understand why we have to talk. Ourselves down. That doesn't make sense to me. I wasn't brought up that way. I was taught to believe in these are your strengths, these are the things you need to work on those.

That's great.

David Grant: Yeah. There's a big difference, Richard, between thinking less of yourself and thinking of yourself less.

(ad here) There are two things that really strike me about the power of what you've just said, Carrie, and, and you know, thoughts from both of you really. The first is, and again I, I, I start by qualifying my ignorance when I'm, when you're talking about neurodiverse people, one of the things that really I [00:23:00] find interesting about what you've just said in, in actually a lot of the narrative, you, you just talk to.

Richard Gerver: Is that, I wonder if neurodivergent people are more honest about themselves, that that actually there is a greater sense of real honesty, less there's it, it's less cluttered, less un less fettered, less. I just wonder if, if, if that's a thing. And of course the other thing that I just want to come back to and reflect on.

What you talked about, and I think that, David, you talked about this too with your, your mother, is this idea of support. And one of the things that really worries me are those children that don't have a cheerleader, and where does that cheerleading come from? But I just wonder if you could touch on, and, and please excuse my ignorance, and I, and I ask the question about neurodiversity in, in all honesty and ignorance, do you think there is an honesty, which is actually an an invisible weapon for neurodivergent people that we need to understand more.

Carrie Grant: Mm-Hmm. That's such a good [00:24:00] question. It's interesting when I look back, I was only diagnosed as autistic this year. Yeah. So, one of the things that I realized looking back now, I've, I've had to, it's like auditing your whole life and going, hang on a minute.

Oh, that's what was

Richard Gerver: going on there.

Carrie Grant: bUt one of the things that I think people, certainly, when I was a judge on telly, people would say, if you want a really honest but kind answer, carrie's the person that will give you that. Mm-Hmm. So I, I realized even from week one as a judge on that TV show, fame academy, that I was able to.

I could be quite brutal actually. I can be quite direct. Again, very autistic traits, but if you have love in the mix, somehow that can transform it into something else. That becomes quite helpful for people I think. I'm sure there are people along the line that will go, oh my gosh, she said that to me. I've never forgotten it.

The Power of Honesty and Constructive Criticism

Carrie Grant: But I would never be personal. I would never say, I don't [00:25:00] like the way you look or the if I was gonna say something, I would be really constructive. Mm-Hmm. Really intricately constructive. No ad ho minimum attacks and just, and, but I, I don't know. I, I, I find that so I know where I stand when people are honest, kind, and honest Re is so helpful.

So yes, I think you're right. I think neurodivergent people, I. Probably an autistic people specifically can definitely, but they definitely can be more honest, sometimes brutally honest, to the point of being painful though. And I think if you mix that with love and kindness, that becomes something that is an amazing part of your armory, that's a won wonderful thing to take into the world.

I think

David Grant: having the kind of the clarity of thinking sometimes that, that autistic people have about right and wrong. It can make you more honest. It can also be, I think, easily diverted if you learn that, that what you have to do to fit in [00:26:00] is to be less honest. Mm. You know? So you, you got some, some, but that, that's not true.

I'm like, it's, but that, that isn't true. What you said that Yeah. Well it is. And, and then go. Yeah. But because the fact of the matter is they think if you are not saying everything. Then you are not being honest. Mm-Hmm. And I think that that kind of brutal honesty can make people unpopular and feel excluded when actually what they're doing is telling the

Richard Gerver: truth.

The Struggles of Neurodivergent People

Richard Gerver: And do you think that's also, sorry. Why a lot of neurodivergent people as particularly, I think as they reach a, a an awareness, a maturation of awareness, actually struggle so much with their mental health because they're almost. They're fighting against honesty. They're fighting against just, my God, being truthful.

Yes. Yeah.

Carrie Grant: I mean, there's nothing worse than when you are, like, for us, fighting for our children to access services within school. Mm-Hmm. [00:27:00] Helping to find what we would call in the UK reasonable adjustments. Those things that you know will make a difference to your child and a school tells you something that you know is a lie.

And they bare face lie to you. I find that really difficult because I would rather someone say, I'm not being funny, but your child just isn't that important to us. Mm-Hmm. We don't really care enough, so we're not, we can't be bothered. I'm sorry. We've got all, we are really stressed. Do it. A nicer version of that.

Yeah. We are really stressed. We've only got this amount of budget. The government haven't given us the right thing way to do this, and therefore we can't help your child. That I can take. Please don't say you are gonna do it and then don't do it. Or make an excuse for not doing it when it's just your own laziness.

Yeah. So tho those things are really difficult. Yeah. That's the kind of stuff that we'll keep autistic people awake at four in the morning.

David Grant: Yeah. Yeah.

The Importance of Truth and Honesty in Relationships

David Grant: For most neurodivergent people I've ever met, a half truth

Richard Gerver: is a whole lie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you know, I think back, I've [00:28:00] worked with a num, a couple of people in professional sport, actually one of whom was, was diagnosed with autism not that long ago.

And he used to get himself into terrible trouble on the field of play. Yeah. And actually he used to get himself into terrible trouble on the field of play anytime he perceived there was an injustice. Most of the time he was fine. Right? Yes. An offended sense of justice. Exactly. Right. Wrong drive. So he would, and it was a, a hugely rules-based sport.

Right. So actually you can understand why he would've felt very comfortable in that environment. Yeah. And the, the times he and he could not restrain or control himself was when there was, in as far as there was an absolute perception of the line being crossed, the rule being broken, and an injustice in that process.

And I always felt so terribly sad for him because nobody seemed to, they just put it off as a behavior trait and actually just a sign of why this guy was off the rails, rather than [00:29:00] saying, but actually, you know what? He's got a real profound sense of something really important there. It's a ripeness,

David Grant: isn't it?

Yeah. It's a sense of ripeness. And, and so you'll find, certainly we've found with, with almost all the, the sort of neurodivergent people that, that we interact with, and there are loads of them that they'll get themselves into trouble on behalf of someone else who they feel is a victim of injustice.

Richard Gerver: Wow.

Wow. That's, I mean, that's

David Grant: extraordinary and I love that about them. I think that's, I mean, something that I've tried really hard to. To teach the kids with varying degrees of success is that, that being honest means that everything you say has to be true. It doesn't mean that everything that's true has to be said.

Mm mm

Richard Gerver: mm-Hmm. But I also, and I love what you are both talking about this thing also about truth with love. Truth with love is a really interesting thing. And before we came on, and I hope you don't, 'cause this is going, I love the, just the direction this is, but one of the things we talked about before we started recording was kind of.

Our future you know, our [00:30:00] children's generations, their future, their children's future. What we're perceiving, I think as, as a real challenge and death of nuance in the world. And it keeps coming back to me, to this thing about I'm, I think our, I I'm very optimistic about the people our children are and the kind of human beings they could become and therefore the kind of world they could lead.

Yeah. But the real interesting thing for me. How do we get them there? You know, I, I've been saying now for, for a long time to the point where people are like, oh, Richard, stop already. I think that our children potentially could lead the next great renaissance. The next great explosion in culture and science.

The Challenges of Parenting Neurodivergent Children

Richard Gerver: Agreed.

Carrie Grant: Humanity. So agree. I so agree with that, which is why I think that. Which is why it's all up for grabs at the moment. Mm-Hmm. Which is why everyone is like screaming and there's so many voices and we've lost gray. You know, gray is the loveliest color. So for everything that you guys have just spoken about with [00:31:00] autistic people, you kind of would think there's a rigidity of black and white thinking.

Mm-Hmm. I, I don't, for me, that's not the case. There's right and wrong. But gray in my, I love the gray. The gray is like that's the sweet spot. That's that lovely bit in the middle that you find that where it all just happens. And in any situation that that I am in, whether that's an argument with a school or whether that's coaching someone into.

Being transformed. Find that gray, that middle ground where they just, they don't feel offended. They don't feel like they're being spoken, threatened, but equally, they don't feel like everyone's just complimenting everything they do. But that lovely space where there's growth um, there's, there's such an opportunity for growth out there.

For growth. And I think our, you are right. So our children see it, our children see that there could be a different future and. If they carry on the way that they are exploring that and being allowed, being given permission to explore, I think they will find wonderful [00:32:00] answers. I really do. I

David Grant: think people may look back at this age as being an age of global, sort of corporate Stockholm syndrome, where people knew there were being lied to, but loved the liars knew they were being misled, but loved the, because people will come up and if we, we have discovered.

That if we endorse the worst prejudices in each other, that we can gain followers, we can gain supporters, we can get clicks rather than actually encouraging and inspiring the best in each other, and hopefully that next generation will look to redress the balance. Can I just, sorry, Carrie.

Richard Gerver: No, go on.

Carrie Grant: Yeah, just one last thing, just something that I've learned in my theological studies is pay attention to power.

Mm-Hmm. Start with the place where it hurts. Wow. And those two sentences for me have become very much a lifestyle of pay attention. Where's the power happening in every situation? [00:33:00] Where's the power? Who's gaining from this? Who's gaining from this? And how are they gaining? Pay attention to power. And actually what really matters is going to the place where it hurts.

You know? If our education system reflected that, what would it look like?

Richard Gerver: I think that's, I mean, and it just leads, funnily enough, what you've just said again sparked something that you'd said, David, that resonates for me. And it's this thing about I wonder whether we've lived in an age of denial.

And actually that's why we listen to the voices that, that we are almost happy for them to lie to us. Yes. Because actually it's a bit like I don't need to, you are the people who mean I don't need to stick my fingers in my ears. 'cause you are doing the la la la for me. Yeah. And, and I just, and it goes back to what you've just said.

Which is this thing about start where it hurts. I mean, in a way that's the thing, isn't it? We almost need to start at the point at which the discomfort happens the moment we go. You know, we, we learned through seeing the [00:34:00] phases of covid, the denialism, the anger, the. Polarization that that eventually leads to a kind of shutdown where you just go, I can't deal it.

It. And one of the things that fascinates me again about both of you is you have always, it seems to me, through your lives it would've been easy, I would imagine, as as young parents. To live in a denial of, of seeing your children come through as neurodivergent as the complexities and challenges you had to deal with.

And again I have in my time as an educator found that some of my greatest fights. For the rights of young people with needs haven't come necessarily from the chi, certainly never from the children themselves actually. They're mostly from trying to get parents to step into the fact we need to their child has difference, there is something we need to work on.

And actually getting the parents to recognize and [00:35:00] move beyond. Denial. Yeah.

The Power of Emotional Intelligence and Understanding

Richard Gerver: And I dunno whether it's something that you recognize in, in the work that you've done and how we, how do we begin those conversations?

David Grant: Mm-Hmm. I think the denial, denial is actually quite a natural and normal response because the alternative response is a recognition of inadequacy.

Certainly in my case, just for I am, I am inadequate. For this challenge, I cannot meet this challenge. I don't know how to deal with this. I don't quite know where we go, what we do, who we reach out to, how we get the help we need, how I become what the children need me to be as a father. When I move beyond that, certainly I had to come outta denial because I recognize there's only one of two options.

Either you stay stuck in that place and just go, I am who I am. I'm not made for this. [00:36:00] You know, my skillset isn't made for my reality. So I shall create an alternative reality in parent children that don't exist in a style that doesn't really work for them. But it's what I know or I can adhere to the advice of an ancient Hebrew proverb, which says, bring a child up in the wave.

That they should go. And when they're older, they won't meaning Find out who they are, find out what they've got, find out what their skills, their passions, their drives, find out what makes them their heart. Sing what gets them up in the morning, get into their world, endorse that in them, encourage that in the, make them believe in that.

And when they're older and the world knocks them and failure happens and they. Fall, they'll get up when people say they can't, they'll know they can because you've made them believe they can, because you've changed in order to accommodate who they are. Carrie calls it being a shapeshifter.

Carrie Grant: Yeah. I I think that it's, the denial thing is, [00:37:00] is interesting.

'cause I think it's a natural response to standing out. Yeah. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And most people wanna just be normal. What most of us don't realize is that normal is an ideology in itself. Somewhere, somewhere along the lines, some white straight men in their fifties decided, this is what normal is, and then everyone went, wow, you're so clever.

You straight white men in your fifties. That's what normal is. Yes. Let's make a big ideology of this and let's call it.

Empire

And and so normal is that thing that we my grandparents, proper working class people, they just wanted to fit. They read the sun every day. They wanted to just fit in.

Don't stand out. You're meant to just fit.

David Grant: And for those in America, that's like the National Enquirer.

Carrie Grant: Yeah. Right. So, whereas now it's. People are going, hang on a minute. Lemme just, I just, can I just question Empire? Can I just question [00:38:00] that, that ideology and that ideology, whatever normal is, and this is across every subject on Earth, but when it comes to children and education and neurodivergence and all of that stuff, if you want your children to be normal and your, your kind of happiness depends on it, then of course you're gonna be in denial.

Yeah. Or if da, like David said, if you feel. I'm completely inadequate. I dunno what to deal. I dunno, how do I deal with something other than normal? So in order to do that, you've got to be incredibly brave. Mm-Hmm. You've got to, you know when people say, Davey's just said something. So then you become the parent your child needs you to be.

There are people that will be screaming at this podcast now saying they've got it all wrong. Do you really become the parent? Your child's in control here. This is like the child controlling the parent. And then when you add to that we've got four kids and we parent in four different ways. What you, you are inconsistent in your quality of parenting on each, not quality the way that you do [00:39:00] this.

Of course, be criticized for. The old way doesn't work. If it's not working and you are ending up with children on suicide watch, you need to look at what you are doing. You need to say to yourself, either I fit in with my mates, or I jump ship and I work my way. How do I do this? I'm in unchartered territory.

I don't know how to. Work this through. But you know, when you start listening on that deep, deep, spacious, silent place of listening, you begin to feel what your children need. You begin to hear what your children need. You begin to perceive what they need, and then you, you get your autonomy back as a parent.

'cause you lose all your autonomy if you're trying to parent in a normal way anyway. They're never gonna do it. They're just gonna become demand and hate you. Once you begin to do that deep, deep listening to children and you are responding, and then it's like a dance. You're going backwards and forwards.

Where are you at? Where am I? How do I support that? How do I, [00:40:00] you like a shepherd? You like knock them to the side, you knock them. You know, there's a little bit of kind of, yeah, okay, babe. Yeah. I know you wanna go. Right? But I think that, and let's have a little just think about you don't have to go left but let's just have a little look at what center might look like. And so,

It's a different way of parenting. It's, it's completely different. It's everything is the opposite of how David and I were parented. Yes. Which, what that's, and so to do that, It's sometimes easier to deny, which is why you ask him Why do people, sorry, David, why do people deny? Because they cannot face the change, that challenge.

It's only for me, I realized it very early on. I needed to jump ship for David. He needed to become so uncomfortable in that old way of doing it that that discomfort was so painful. It was more painful than changing, and that's what caused David. To, to change. You talk about that. Yeah.

David Grant: Carrie jumped ship.

I've tied myself to the mast singing nearer my God to the as it disappeared beneath the waves [00:41:00] of the iceberg, mark Neurodivergence, that the ship had hit. I was not abandoning my post.

Richard Gerver: Just didn't work and,

David Grant: and my philosophy was, if it's not working, it's because try hard. I'm not doing it hard enough. Yeah.

I'm not being strict enough with it. I'm not being direct enough with it and no, no, it wasn't working because these weren't the children that this was going to work with. One of the great things that you, you. Are one of the countries and most advanced and revered educators, and the reason is because you, I believe, among many things, you have found ways.

Of reaching into the children that you are educating, finding out how they learn. If somebody doesn't learn the way you teach, you have to teach the way they learn. Otherwise they'll be frustrated and you'll be [00:42:00] frustrated. It's the same with raising the kids, which is why in our book we've got loads about this and loads of strategies.

Not saying, do it this way, do it that way, but. If your child is like this, here are some ideas. If they're like this, here are some ideas. And this has long-term implications, Richard, because you know, we have certainly at the moment in, in the developed world, the global north, an epidemic of mental health challenges among young people.

You know, even in Japan, they have a group of people called the Hikamori they lock themselves in their room, they interact with the world through social media. Through screens, they order their food in. They never leave. They cannot interface with the world. And we have more and more an equivalent of that all over the developed world.

Why? Well, because people are told that if you acquire this, this qualification, these jobs, this amount of money, this amount of property, you will be happy and actually. [00:43:00] Happiness. When people say, I just want my child to be happy, we, we've abandoned that. We want our children to be whole because nobody is happy all the time.

But if you are whole, you will know how to navigate the storms of unhappiness to arrive at a harbor of happiness.

Richard Gerver: I just, honestly, you two have blown me away.

The Future of Education and Leadership

Richard Gerver: And, and just to, to kind of start to wrap this one of the things that strikes me is we are living in this really interesting time of history, a cusp where.

Post whatever you want to label it, post industrialism, whatever you want to call it. Right? We've lived in a world where this myth of efficiency, if you find efficiency and you find stability, and you find certainty, your life will be. Cookies and cocoa, right? Yeah. Mm-Hmm. And, and that's what we were always taught.

All of us, we were all taught that, and, and to an extent, [00:44:00] the education system, as it still stands today, is predicated on that. We are living in a world now, and I don't think humanity's ever changed, but I think the environment in which we exist has, which means this has all been exposed far more now. And I think the, the point is we are now living in a world where none of that's true. You know, one of the reasons I think we see a rise in populism in the world is because people were made the promise of certainty. So they did what they were told, they got as efficient as possible and they woke up one morning and they didn't have a job.

They didn't have a pension, they didn't have security, they didn't have a home, and they became angry. And then the frees of, of. Of, of populism become the voice that, that allow those people to go. Oh, okay. So there're to blame, right? Okay. Yes. Okay. As long as I can be angry, as long as I can be angry, I can make sense of it.

So. We're scapegoat. Yeah, exactly. Right. And, and then, oh, if I can be angry at them, that makes everything okay. I can blame [00:45:00] them. And I think you know what you are talking about, and I think what's really interesting for me is whether it's neurodiversity, whether it's your own stories and your own existences, what we are dealing with here.

Is is actually the truth. And the truth is the world is is post certain. There is no certainty anymore. Right? Yeah. And this idea of being able to learn, being able to reconfigure live in the gray is exactly the point. Carrie, I love that. Although my, I'm going gray and I love the fact I can embrace that I'm gone.

Exactly. David, I mean, I didn't like to say anything. But the fact before we had

David Grant: kids.

Richard Gerver: I had hair, you had hair, everything was different but, I think for me, this is the great. Dichotomy within the education debate and beyond it, and actually within leadership, because I think in so many ways, you both eloquently talked about not just education, but leadership. It's about emotional intelligence. It's not about saying we have to factory farm. The people who work with us work for us.[00:46:00]

The ones we're educating what we know is emotional intelligence is the core of everything. Actually, whether it's education, whether it's leadership, whatever it is. And, and I, I think what you've both done so powerfully in our episode today is, is speak to that. And, and all I can do is say thank you for for being you, for being the extraordinary human beings you are.

And for taking the time to speak to me today. Mm-hmm.

Carrie Grant: Can I say There's lots of us. Yeah. People like you, Richard. People like us. There are loads of us out there. Don't let anyone make you think that your magic is worth nothing. Yeah. There are loads of us, and if you could do a headcount, because we, a lot of the time it's under the radar.

If you could do a headcount of the people that are out there using their magic, there's, there's a whole lot more of us than we realize.

Richard Gerver: Oh God, what a message to finish [00:47:00] on. Can I ask you one final question? Simple. Just a, if people wanna know more about you and you are remarkable, both of you how can they connect?

How can they find out more about your work?

Carrie Grant: I guess, Through our website, Carrie and David grant.co uk and

David Grant: now Carrie, CARR, ie. Rather than why Yeah, not like the actor.

Carrie Grant: Yeah. And then just on our socials, I'm Carrie Grant one or Carrie Grant says on Instagram and David is David Grant says on Twitter.

And David Grant says underscore on Instagram. Brilliant. That's just, we love messaging

David Grant: back message. We love message. Absolutely. You know, and like Carrie said, one of the wonderful things about social media is the world is connected and if you connect with like-minded people of goodwill, it becomes the antidote to the Stockholm syndrome of the naysayers and the lies.

We have an opportunity, I believe, to be part of preparing. The ground for the next generation. You [00:48:00] know, society flourishes when people plant trees, they'll never sit beneath the shade of, let's plant some trees.

Richard Gerver: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much to both of you. Thank you. For everyone that's listened to us today.

If you'd like to find out more, please check out my website, richard gerber.com and subscribe to this podcast that's gonna really help so that you don't miss any future episodes. And I guess until next time, here's to the future. Thank you.