Paul Burrows

[00:00:00] Hello, and thank you for joining us. My name is Richard Gerver. I've worked in education, human development, and leadership for the last four decades. In this podcast series, I'm chatting to a diverse range of people. From a number of different fields business, sport, the arts, education, and philanthropy, to explore what our young people and organizations really need in order to thrive, not just survive, in times of increasing change and uncertainty.

Richard Gerver: Welcome to The Learning Bridge. Now, today, I have the great privilege of introducing you to my guest, Paul Burrows. I'm not going to steal his [00:01:00] thunder, as you know on this podcast I like our guests to tell us about their own journeys. But Paul is far too humble a human being. to explain the extraordinary impact he has and continues to have on the lives of young people directly in education.

As you know, most of the time on this podcast we talk to people who work outside the fields of education about the needs of young people. But Paul is the exception. And to have Paul come and talk to us today, as you'll find out during our conversation, it was a no brainer to have someone with Paul's insight, experience and passion on with us today.

So I hope you enjoy today's episode. Paul, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today.

Paul Burrows: Morning, Richard. Can I just say this is the very [00:02:00] definition of imposter syndrome? I'm living and breathing it right now. So, apologies for that. But but thank you. That's a really, really kind introduction.

Thank you.

Richard Gerver: It's an honestly a pleasure and please don't trust me. I've lived all my life waiting for the person to catch up with me and go Is that it richard? Is that really all you've got every day? I wake up thinking today's the day Anyway, look paul as again you are A serving school principal in a very busy community.

So I want to crack straight in here and ask you if you can tell those who are listening today a little bit about yourself and specifically your own childhood and how you think it got you to where you are now.

Paul Burrows: Yeah, of course. What's interesting is I think you have to get older to reflect. I think as you live and breathe it, you don't know, but I'll tell you some highlights.

I think my father's in the army and posted all over the world. He met my mother [00:03:00] while he was posted in Thailand. The cute but lovely story is that dad was going over to take on a job and the person whose job he was taking over employed my mother, my mom as housekeeper. So my dad was taking this person's job and also ended up stealing his housekeeper.

So lovely, lovely, lovely story. So they fell in love and they moved back to England in the early sixties. Well, even to pausing at that point, you, so my mom's family thought she'd made it. You know, a white Western man was interested in a young Thai girl and for her to leave her whole family, everything she knew, everybody she knew to come to England, never, clearly never been on a plane before, never been abroad before, didn't have a passport or anything.

And what a brave thing to do. But again, I didn't know that. I didn't understand that. So they come to England and then dad gets posted all over the [00:04:00] world again. And so mum stays in a little town in Cambridgeshire. And not even a town, sorry, a little village. And you know, it is one pub, one shop kind of village.

And she was there, again, as the only non white person, and again, you don't value that, you don't think about that at the time. Long, long story, forward a few years, and then me and my brother, and we end up settling in York, it's a beautiful part of the country, beautiful town, while Dad's posted all around the world.

So I have this father, who is in one sense, physically, but certainly not absent in any other way, providing for the family in the most amazing way. And again, you don't realize it until you reflect upon it. You learn the values of hard work and you learn about sacrifice. At that point, my mum sacrificed everything for us.

My father sacrificed everything for us. Did we appreciate that? Of course we didn't. Do I now? Of course I do. But we also had that strange situation of my mum [00:05:00] not necessarily a good speaker of English. We've got two young boys, thankfully quite bright. And doing well for ourselves. But I remember things about school that we just coped, we just got on with stuff.

We used to walk to school, but back in the day you did. You know, parents evenings back, it was just my mum and her English wasn't good enough, so she never went to any of those things. So, on one face of it you'd think we weren't supportive, but, supported, but we were incredibly supportive. But probably without realizing it, supporting in a very different way.

And so it wasn't a struggle, I would never say it was a struggle, we had a such a fantastic childhood, I loved school. But it grows you but I don't think you know, it grows you too much much much later. (ad here)

Wow, there's so much there to unpick Paul and particularly as people get to find out a little bit more about your adult journey, your professional life and what you've given All of that too.

Richard Gerver: And I think people will see some very powerful threads I mean if I can take you [00:06:00] back to growing up there you are in cambridgeshire and for people that don't know Cambridgeshire it's about as middle england as you can get. And so i'm just first of all just to give people a point of reference your parents came over here in the 60s How old were when when were you born?

When was your brother born? So so what? You know, when was your childhood in the 70s?

Paul Burrows: Mid sixty, so sixty six World Cup year for my brother, and sixty eight for me.

Richard Gerver: So, with that in mind, given that you were two young boys in a mixed race family with a dad who often wasn't around, and mum You know, one of the things that I think we'll pick up on as a theme through this conversation is your passion for working with young people who are different or who are perceived to be different.

What was that like for you growing up in the late 60s, early 70s in Cambridgeshire? And what, did you have any specific experiences that you think looking [00:07:00] back on have helped mould your passion for what you do now?

Paul Burrows: Absolutely. In terms of my memories, that would be York. So just as a point of correction, so York is, but it's equally Middle England.

Oh, right. Sorry. Yeah. Again, very honestly, and openly, I only think, I've only thought about this more recently. If all I saw about my own eyes were white people, that's all I saw. I, me and my brother were the only non whites in the whole school, in our street. And that sounds really crazy, but didn't realize I wasn't white?

Richard Gerver: Yeah.

Paul Burrows: And you only realize that on the odd occasion, school photographs, when there's a whole year group there, or your class photo. And there's only those few times. And then the other times when you realize are quite negative times, when somebody else points it out to you. And You, as a young person, all you really want to do is fit in.

There are some kind of gregarious people that want to show off all the time, but actually, I believe [00:08:00] most people just want to get on. They don't really want to raise their head too high. And that was me, certainly. Just getting on just doing the right thing and when people point things out to you, you know and generally in a not pleasant way, it does hit you and You then go Wow, maybe I don't belong or why do I belong?

You question those things And you don't have any answers Because you've got actually no one to question it to you, you just question yourself. But you probably dig deep. But I remember at the time thinking, well, I don't quite fit in. And I mean, a real memory of this when we were quite settled as a class in school.

And I remember a young person coming in and I remember thinking, I'm going to go and Befriend that person because I know I want that person to fit in. And I didn't take it upon myself to do to be the class settle in there, but it felt like that became a bit of a thing for me to do. I would always go out my way to make somebody feel comfortable [00:09:00] and come and sit with me at lunch or whatever it was.

And that was from a very early age. And I don't really know why, but I suppose I rationalize that in terms of. Wanting everybody to fit in and wanting everybody to feel that they belong. Maybe that that, that grew it from there, perhaps.

Richard Gerver: So, I mean you were clearly a deeply emotional, emotionally intelligent young man and going from that how and when was your first thought about, I want to build a career in education myself?

How did that evolve?

Paul Burrows: Yeah. I mean, we've all, we all go through school. We all get careers advice. And I remember it was you know, it was the seventies. We had this thing called a computer. It was like the first, it was bonkers. Absolutely amazing. And someone had designed the most rudimentary basic program.

And so you had to put your likes and wants in and it could, it gave you like four directions to go in. That was about it. And one of them was. [00:10:00] education. And I remember it was early teens, mid teens, and I went absolutely no chance, not interested in that. So dismissed. And then again, I was fortunate.

I did really well at school. I enjoyed my school time. And it was, it got to the time of university and I didn't really know what to do. But I thought I'd be, I did engineering, I actually did electronic engineering. And so it was in my kind of skill set. Again, I loved my school and my favorite teacher was a physics teacher.

And my second favorite was my math teacher. So they're the subjects I did well in. So. I naturally went down this kind of engineering path, but I realized I didn't want to get my hands dirty. So I wasn't going to be a car mechanic or in that kind of engineer or work with anything dirty. So I thought I'd go for this new fangled thing called electronic engineering.

So that's what I did. And mixture of experience at university, but it ends up with disillusionment, not really for me. For whatever reason, it [00:11:00] wasn't the path I wanted to go down. Well, I mean, I'll go back a step if you don't mind. I mean, what was interesting, I felt about my university was I'd gone from a fairly small school and was quite, Right, Brian, quite popular.

You go to a bigger school and suddenly there's actually more popular people and more brighter people than you, and then you go to university and you're at the bottom of the pile. And I remember there was this one particular thing was and if you remember, we were talking about very kind of, Late 80s, early 90s, this, there's this company that was making mobile phones at the time.

The new set of mobile phones had a a ball and not everybody on my course was invited. The top 50 were invited and the rest of us weren't invited. And at that point, it was like, wow. Okay, there's the haves and have nots of the world, and I realized it really wasn't for me. So, long story short, I was in a house with somebody who was training to be a teacher and said, come and have a chat with my tutor.

I remember his name, Dave Stancliffe, from Newcastle University, and I went to have a chat with him, and I talked about my disillusionment. He said, wow, [00:12:00] your maths and your physics, So, we're crying out for those in education, give it a go. And probably that was one of the most life changing conversations I've had in my life because I enrolled, I stayed on another year at university, did my PGCE, absolutely loved it, must have been half decent at it, and I've never looked back since.

Richard Gerver: Wow, wow. I mean, really interesting. I just want to go back to this thing about it's a fascinating debate right now, isn't it? The whole thing about university. Is it, I mean, yes, it's an entitlement and everyone should have that opportunity, but is university right for everybody? You know, who, what you choose to study at university can sometimes be the issue that thing about transition through the phases of education can have such a powerful emotional response for young people.

And sometimes I think we underestimate it. I think rightly now. There's quite a focus on the transition from primary to secondary education But i'm not sure there's [00:13:00] really that good a focus on the transition from secondary to tertiary and particularly into to universities So one thing i'd like to just pick up on because you mentioned it very briefly It's almost that moment fallible or Failure is too strong a word But actually, you're used to succeeding in a small pond.

You're used to being one of the brightest and the best. How did you cope with that, Paul? How what that moment where suddenly you're at university and you think, oh my god, I didn't get invited to the ball etc. You know, what, how did you find that at the time? And now as an educator, what do you do to try and ensure young people are prepared better for that kind of experience?

Paul Burrows: What I did find your kin. So you find other people that weren't invited. And there were two or three of my, I would say, my closer friends from university college, and on the night of the ball we went out and had a good time instead. Possibly a better time, who knows? [00:14:00] So it's a metaphorical don't care.

Obviously deep down you are. wounded by it. And I also remember there was a period of time when, and as awful as this sounds I started sitting at the back of the lectures you, you don't want me, I don't need you anymore. Or, and there was a sense of let down. There's a sense of I'm trying here.

And I think all those individual things they build a momentum in yourself. They add things to your, you as a person, your resilience. And I, what I ended up doing was look for a way out and my way out. Ultimately was the best thing ever for me, which was to change career direction. So, maybe I was fortunate, I mean there's a thing about luck, do you make your own luck or whatever, I don't know the answer to that, but what I know is, I didn't give up.

I resolved to find a way through, and I guess that stays with you. Firstly, I would [00:15:00] say, because the second part of the question was about what do I do now, I think I wouldn't be as brutal. As it felt at the time the haves and the have nots, you try not to be brutal. There is a societal influence, which is pass fail what grade did you get?

And there's always that. There's ways and means of doing that. And I think you celebrate achievements at whatever level. I don't think you have to be brutal about it. Because what's good for one person is not necessarily good for the other person. If two people get a C grade, a middle grade, well, for one, that could be absolutely outstanding.

And for the other person, it could be a real disappointment. You've not done enough. So I don't think it's the rawness of the grade. It's the journey, the progress, it's the attitudinal things that go around that are important. But yeah, so I'm not, I would say I'm not brutal anymore about that. But you also, what you do is you know, you look after everybody and find their way through as I found my way through.

Richard Gerver: I think [00:16:00] it's really interesting. One of the things that I've noticed, and I don't know if you're the same, some of the best educators I've been privileged enough to meet throughout my life and my career. Are people who themselves have come through a moment or a time of adversity which gives them a kind of emotional depth and understanding, which I think is what sets them apart and without blowing smoke you know, when I've seen you at work and in your interactions with the young people you work with, what I see is a deeply connected educator with their students and it's your humanity that shines through for me.

So with that in mind you know, there you are. You are now. An educator, can you tell me a little bit about your early career? You know the kind of school you worked in and how that was and yeah what was that like that early phase of your teaching career?

Paul Burrows: Yeah so I was at university, I'd done my [00:17:00] PGCE and you know, everyone starts talking about jobs and in a bizarre way, I was very free.

I had no ties. So I literally looked up and down the country as it were to what appealed to me. I knew I didn't want to go certain places. I've never been a huge big town kind of person and London felt too big and too busy for me. So there were certain things I didn't want to do.

So I ended up going to Suffolk based in Edmonds, which almost back to childhood. I mean, that's a 360 journey. It's a beautiful part of the country. And I started there in a fantastic school, which But the start of a young person's career couldn't have been better. I remember going, I remember the interview.

I remember just the idea of having my own classroom and being able to impact upon these pupils was amazing. I was successful in the interview, thankfully. It was my first interview that I'd ever had. Another true story, because I was in Newcastle at the [00:18:00] time, and the space at Edmonds, geographically, that's 300 miles apart, and I got stuck on the M1, on the motorway, and I should have been there at, say, nine o'clock, and at half past eight, I was too far away, so I had to pull in, and I made a phone call, again, back in the day, no mobile phones, so I had to pull in a service station, find the number and ring the school and say, I'm really sorry I'm late.

And I remember driving in, I must've been 20 minutes late. I remember walking into reception. Hi, I'm Paul. Hello. You know, the young thing coming for interview and the person kind of looked me up and down and you're late. Okay, I'm really sorry I'm late and again, it's an interesting one Maybe I've never really thought about this now But maybe that at that moment thinking that it's a waste of time thinking I've lost it maybe freed me up So I went into it thinking well, I'm going to just get experience from this now.

I'm not going to get this job I'm just gonna get experience. Anyway, had a great [00:19:00] day loved it got the job Again, never look back. But I remember thinking it was slightly daunting, but you have to be brave. And maybe the echoes of my mum I'm just going 300 miles down the country in a, in an environment, which I kind of know it's a school in a country, which I do know in a language, which I know, Well, come on, Paul, I can do that little bit.

You know, my mum threw halfway around the world so it was doable. So maybe just again, dig deep a little bit. I'm going to reset myself. I'm going to reinvent myself. I'm going to maybe not reinvent, maybe that's too strong, too different a word, maybe establish myself is better. I'm going to establish myself as Paul Burris.

Physics teacher extraordinaire. And that's what I set about doing. (ad here)

It's extraordinary. I mean, there are so many moments, and we'll come on to this in a minute, where courage, which comes from your mum, your father, particularly your mother, seems to come through so many of the decisions you've made in your adult and professional life.

Richard Gerver: That and [00:20:00] it's a fascinating thing, isn't it? Because Role models, we talk a lot about role models in education and how important role models are, and not just the professional role models, i. e. teachers and teaching assistants and those people who are working with our young people in schools, but how the challenge I think has always been for those young people that don't have the luck.

Or privilege of having a personal role model in their lives You know, those are the kids who are right on the cusp. They will either go one way or the other right? They will either react and go i'll show them and that gives them a weird kind of galvanizing force Or they do that thing where they go, well, nobody cares, so I don't care.

Don't care about myself. Don't. And it fascinates me that. And we might pick up on that a little bit in a minute, I guess. So there you were. You had a really successful career in, and I hate this term, in a [00:21:00] mainstream school. And then you moved to to work within special education and how did that come about?

How did you go from being the physics teacher to working increasingly with young people with complex needs?

Paul Burrows: Yeah, I've done 25 years in the term you use mainstream in secondary school. So you're talking 11 to 18 year olds. That's a long time, your whole adult life working with a particular cohort of young people.

In doing so, you do come across the range I wouldn't say mainstream is of a type, mainstreams are full of a range. So you do come across and you know what you're good at. I I was a physics teacher extraordinaire, I'd have to say. I love that, but I also knew I was relatable and could get on with the children.

And that's always a piece of advice I give [00:22:00] to new entrants to the profession is that relationships are key. Children generally work for the ones that they like. Invariably, if you ask a person what their favorite subject was in school, they will give an answer, whatever that answer is. If you say, what was your favorite teacher?

It's the same, it's the same subject and that's not lost on us. Humans exist in a relationship basis. We like the people we like and we do things for the people we like and it nurtures you. So, but the question being, how did I then travel into the world of special education? It was, Everything's luck, isn't it?

Maybe. Do you make your own luck? I don't know. I can't answer that question. But it was a stage of our lives where we were wanting to move back to back into the Derby area. And again, very luckily there were. adverts for jobs around and you have a look and you go, yes, no, interested, semi interested, do some [00:23:00] research.

Anyway, this job in this specialist school for autism came up. So I went to have a chat with the head before I'd done anything else, before I'd even applied, because I needed to answer my question, which was what value can I add? Because I'm not going to go anywhere which I can't add value and feel my own self worth.

And a member of the conversation, da da da da da, went along and I said, but I'm, I have taught autistic young people, but I've never worked in a special environment. And the head basically said to me, well, Paul, I've got all the specialists in the world here about autism. What I don't have is someone like you that, that can lead the curriculum.

improve teaching and learning. And so actually my skill set completely, in one sense, was completely different to everyone else's skill set, but exactly what the school needed. And that head was outwardly thinking enough to go, well, I don't want a carbon copy of my skill set. I want something completely different to me.

So [00:24:00] the chalk and the cheese that we were was either going to be a complete disaster or genius. And I like to think now, again, reflecting that it was a genius move. So I brought things to the school that nobody else could. And within a very, very short period of time, I realized what special schools, specialist schools should be and should need.

is the very best educators. There is a misnomer out there which you go to a specialist school to retire, you go there for an easy life. Absolutely not. Those children 110 percent deserve the very best teachers. Some of the best teachers I've seen are working in specialist settings because you talk about relationships first, then knowledge.

Well, you have to make a relationship with some very difficult and challenging young people. If you can make a relationship with a difficult and challenging young person, and get them to sit down, and then get them to put a pen to [00:25:00] paper, and get them to do your maths or your physics, my word, you are skilled.

And we need more and more top quality educators in specialist settings.

Richard Gerver: I think that's really powerful. I also think that the message that you put across there, which I think is also potent, is don't make the mistake of thinking you have to have expertise in that specialist area. If you are an outstanding teacher, you will develop the expertise and knowledge you need in order but what those kids need first and foremost is an outstanding educator.

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Paul Burrows: hundred percent. I and I have brought that into my the particularly recent when I, when the more senior you get, the more responsible you are for recruitment. I absolutely say that to everybody. And you know, I almost at the beginning when I'm doing my welcome to the school, I say, well, I'm not being rude, but none of you are perfect.

But what I'm looking for is potential. You have all got different skill sets. Some of you can't do this and we can't do that. You can all do [00:26:00] this, and this. And between you, I'm looking for someone that can grow into the role and become that person that we need. Because none of us are perfect.

None of us are amazing. We just do what we do. And if we can see and grow from that, those skills in people, then that's fantastic. I always say it's a twee phrase, but I can't teach someone how to be kind. That's just, I don't know how to do that. I can teach them how to teach fractions or multiplication, but I can't teach them how to be kind.

I can't teach someone to like children. They're really fundamental as a teacher and an educator. You've got to have some real basic traits in you. The other stuff, if you've got those basics, then I think we can support you in other skills. In particular skills about autism or my current setting, which we'll come to, I guess.

There are things that you can be taught, but I can't teach you how to be kind. I can't teach you how to be a nice person. They're the skills I look [00:27:00] for. They're the personal traits, which I look for because I know those kind of people make great educators.

Richard Gerver: Yeah, I think that's really interesting because I think we're living in a climate at the moment, I think pretty much globally around the education sector, where so many people on social media and policy and political levels are talking about knowledge is king.

Now I'm not going to get into a debate today. About knowledge versus skills and attitudes and attributes and all that stuff But it does worry me that we're living in a culture where teachers feel under pressure to know the mechanics Of how to teach in a technical sense and more importantly what I need to teach And I wonder whether to an extent we've lost sight of that most crucial of all of all things which is that humanity, that emotion and intelligence, the ability to connect, to communicate, to listen.

And that's going to bring us very poignantly onto [00:28:00] the next session, section, I think. So there you are, you've done an amazing job. And I remember reading when I was researching, for this. I read an article in I think it was school week or somewhere that had done a profile on you and you were describing the next step so you then Move on to apply to become the head teacher the school principal of the royal school for the deaf In Derby and there's a passage in the interview that describes your interview for that job and walking into a room of young people and sitting down and this I think speaks very powerfully to what we've just been talking about there you are an outstanding educator with maybe not the world's greatest ability to sign and to communicate with young people with You know hearing loss and with deafness And I love this bit where you sat there and you felt like a total fish out of [00:29:00] water and a bit uncomfortable because you were finding it hard.

I suppose it's, and I'll come on to this story in a second, it's a bit like going to a foreign country where you've walked into a place where the language is different. And you don't know how to speak that language. And then, the beauty of the body language and the way you talked and communicated with each other grew into what became a vociferous conversation.

That is long winded, because I remember when you first showed me round the Royal School for the Deaf, and we went into a couple of classrooms, and the young people were amazing. Absolutely amazing. And I was cumbersome, clumsy, awkward stumbling. I think I used my one signing thing at the time over.

People must have thought, what, who is that bloke? All he knows how to do is say hello and thank you. And you sat me down outside and you said, how did you, how did that feel? And I said that was really uncomfortable and really awkward. And they said, and you said to me, [00:30:00] Richard, you only feel that whilst you're here for the hour you're here.

Those young people feel that in a wider society almost every minute of every day. And it was one of the most powerful things I think anyone has ever said to me about diversity. And so there you are you was there a particular reason why the Royal School for the Deaf and How did that feel in your earlier stages once you've got the job

Paul Burrows: The why Nothing Before I'd seen the job and applied for it, no, didn't know, didn't really know of it. Once I'd seen the job advert, did my research. Once again, it was something stirs in you, which is I can make a difference here. I could read and research about the school and thought, well, actually, perhaps my skill set could work here.

I came for a visit and felt at [00:31:00] home straight away. It's such a warm, lovely family environment anyway. It would probably make anyone feel at home, but it stirs something in you. It suited me. It felt like I could Make a difference here. So, so I did I was very lucky. I keep using that word look, don't I?

I went for the job and I remember I was I was the diversity inclusion person at that point because I was the only hearing person there. And that's strange. And perhaps, maybe go full circle to my first interview. I thought, well, I'm here as a token. I haven't got the job. Maybe I relaxed into it and maybe give off.

of myself maybe a bit more and maybe that's what they liked. But going back to the story which you've alluded to, which was one of the tasks was sitting in a table so, with, I think there were four deaf young people, and all the staff just went And left us to it. So each of the candidates was sat on a table and I remember [00:32:00] thinking, gosh, this is going to be difficult.

But I know at the end, my table or our table was the loudest, most raucous table going. And I had no sign language because we found a different way. And I think that's that stays with you. You find different ways. And the test, which I realized because I do it now, isn't about BSL. It's about communication.

Communication is so much more than just the spoken word or the signed word. It's everything about you. It's your smile, your engagement, your body language, your active listening. So all those things made the table I was on. It was just fantastic and you know, there's so many anecdotes even from that one, one session that I could share.

But yeah, going back to your visit to the school and I must say this for your listeners. I introduced you as to the staff and the pupils as Richard G. It was on the board already. And so I had a whole school expecting Richard Geer to come with me. I'm not saying they were disappointed, Richard, [00:33:00] however , it wa it was funny and that, that joke just lives with me.

Yeah.

Richard Gerver: It's not the, it's not the first time I have been mistaken in name, in name. I had, I, I. For Richard Gere, and it is the one of many where people have just shown sheer disappointment at the fact that I wasn't. So, I've grown up realising that the only thing I have in common with Richard Gere are the first three letters of our surname.

Paul Burrows: But what I did when I showed you around school was exactly what I like to do with other people. It's to slightly take you out of your comfort zone. And as you say, it was a minute of your life feeling inadequate. You know, you're a successful man, lived well, lived a full life. And yet you can still feel inadequate.

Given your back, even though you knew it was for minutes. You're still feeling adequate. Well, what if you've never had all those life chances? What if you've never actually felt adequate? If your life is feeling [00:34:00] slightly inadequate. So specialist settings, specialist schools are so important because I flipped that.

And say, well, yes, in my case it's a hearing world, but for from eight o'clock in the morning till four o'clock in the afternoon, the children that go to my school have total freedom, total familiarity, total easeness in an environment which they can be themselves, they can be funny and silly, and daft and naughty.

But their children, they're allowed to be all those things. I'm allowing them to grow up. I'm allowing them to develop a personality. I'm allowing them to develop relationships with staff. As much as we've all got a favorite teacher, I bet most of us had a teacher we didn't like. Well, if you're able to form those relationships with adults as a child in a safe environment, school, and you work out who you like and who you don't like.

You end up working out there are traits about people which I like and traits [00:35:00] about people which I don't like. If you're not in a setting like ours you struggle to develop those thoughts yourself and it's no point me telling you who you like and me telling you what you like. You have to find out yourself because that's how I know i've become who I am because I've Dug deep at times.

I've looked inward at times. I've reflected at times how and why I do that. I don't know, but I know I've had to do that at times. I believe everybody does that at times. And you said in a few minutes ago about when you haven't had that role model, you've got, you go one or two ways. You either go to a kind of engagement way or disengagement way.

I actually believe most people want the engagement road. Most people, even if they haven't got a role model in their own lives, as much as they're disaffected and possibly going against the system and being naughty, for want of a better word, I don't actually fundamentally believe they want to be naughty.

They are still looking for boundaries, and I would always say that in my teaching career, [00:36:00] when you establish rules as a teacher, And boundaries, actually children like boundaries. They know where they fit, so they might play and pretend to fight against them, but really it gives them safety and security and it allows them to establish who you are, who they are, what the rules are.

Once you've got over that bit, then they get on, then you have a relationship with them, then you can teach them, then they become brilliant young people.

Richard Gerver: I mean, it's such powerful insight, Paul. And of course, it's powerful insight into the worlds of any young person in any education setting, no matter who they are or where they are.

And it is, I think, one of the great art forms of great educators. and of the culture of great education organizations that young people feel a sense of belonging, understand expectations, rules, systems, but then because of that security have the license to [00:37:00] flourish, find themselves who they are, what makes them unique, and then through that journey.

How they use their uniqueness to impact on society, and I think in a way, what is so important that educators are mindful of is exactly that, that yes, we need regimen, we need systems, we need structures, we need all those things for the reasons you so eloquently put. But we need to make sure that every young person in those environments feels confident to grow as a unique human being.

Whether they're marked because of a need, because of a difference, because whatever it is, sometimes visible, sometimes not, sometimes obvious, sometimes not. You know, every single one of us. And this is the inconvenient truth is a unique organic being and part of that crucial part of the education journey and raising of young people is to help every young people [00:38:00] have every young person have the confidence to celebrate their uniqueness and what that brings to the world.

And so with that, I'm so cognizant of your time and I want to finish if I can. And what has been. I've found an extraordinary conversation and your authenticity and humanity shines through Paul. If people want to connect with you and find out more about you, the work you do at the Royal School for the Deaf, what's the best way for people to connect with you?

Paul Burrows: I am absolutely a people person. The best way is to talk to me, speak to me, because there's huge value in that, that I go back that's about relationships in there, of course, but that's not feasible, necessarily, I think the World School for the Deaf we have a website, I'm on X and LinkedIn.

There would be my two most common platforms To get in touch. Yeah,

Richard Gerver: that's brilliant. Thank you so much and [00:39:00] thank you again paul for your at the beginning. We started this conversation and you talked about imposter Syndrome it's what i'm feeling during our conversation because I genuinely think what you do, what you've done, the environments you've created and worked in, your own story are truly, truly remarkable.

And we, as an education community, are very, very, very lucky to have you, so thank you. And thank you all so much for joining us today. If you'd like to find out more, then please check out my website richardgerver. com and subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss any future episodes. But until next time, here's to the future.